[gme]

I dont want to sound like a miserable old c**t but

Then don't.

Of course its not significant in a world wide Adam Ondra, Usain Bolt sense but whats wrong with giving a kid some encouragement you miserable old cunt?

Jim is about 5'4" ATM, it is a flipping good effort. He's also pretty grounded, humble even, and probably won''t be phased reading this thread.

However gme your comment! This takes me back over twenty years to when I was that age. I quit the comps and actively avoided trying to get into any sort of Sheffield scene because of the negative bitchy environment that prevailed.

They are thinking big GME, despite this sort of negative bullshit. Some will be put off altogether, others will think fuck you I'll do it on my own.

FFS what has this got to do with the so called Sheffield scene, did it steal your toys from your pram???. its nothing to do with Sheffield or its so called scene, i am i fact kind of having a go at the whole UK scene, of which Sheffield is part of unless its voted for some kind of Scottish type independence. I have not been bitchy or given negative bullshit in anyway at all. I commented on the reporting of this in reply to others questioning as to whether it warranted its own thread. I did not say anything negative about Jims ascent, rather i have complimented all along.

I personally think, and you obviously dont agree with me, that over-hyping young sports people can have a negative effect on there long term performance and that the UK climbing media can be guilty of this. Others would agree with me as if you google "over hyping young athletes" you will find numerous articles on the subject. There is a huge difference between encouragement and over hyping and i think that the UK climbing media is, and has been for some time, guilty of the latter.

If you dont agree with me cowboyhat i am sorry for that, how about putting some points forward to counter my argument rather than just accusing me of being bitchy or part of a fictitious scene that obviously upset you in the past.

[rodma]

I personally think, and you obviously dont agree with me, that over-hyping young sports people can have a negative effect

    

[jwi]

.

If some future NBA, 8'3", star learns to leap 4mtrs into the air and latch a hold that no-one else could ever climb to, would it count?

An 8'3" man wouldn't even be able to hold a pull-up bar one handed, never mind catching it after jumping. And forget about muscling up on the hold and topping out.

I'll go as far as saying that there will never be a boulder-problem with a top-out that a 8'3" man can do, that I cannot do.

I digress. But that's on purpose.

[T_B]

I digress. But that's on purpose.

 

[Sloper]

Sorry to return this to the subject, but the achievement is to be welcomed and it is newsworthy.  What others at the very cutting edge are doing grades wise is really rather beside the point: after all we didn't dismiss the early repoint repeats of this route because Antoine le menestrel soloed did 'we'?

Criticism of this chap with reference to what others have done is a rather unpleasant and snide put down; it's one thing to appreciate where the cutting edge is to be found, and another to use this to diminish the efforts of a boy/very young man.

As for over-hyping this chap, I don't see a hint of that, we's probably and quite rightly absolutely full of himself for nailing a pretty seminal route and the proper reaction should be along the lines of 'Id' buy you a pint but you're too young'. Do the media over hype things ? Yes, of course they do, do you uinderstand how the media operates?

GME, out of interest, how old were you when you climbed Revelations?

[benpritch]

And regards the comment about 11a, we will get there at some point, 9c isnt far away and 10a will happen in the next 15-20 years so why not more. Who would have ever though 9a would be onsighted and yet 2 people have now done it, more will follow and i would love to see one of them being from the UK.

Why not?
Because the incremental increase in difficulty becomes, inevitably, ever smaller and hence harder to define. This is already apparent from the arguing and bitching that goes on about current grades.
We start entering the realms of difficulty where the slightest change in a Myriad of subtle variables determine success or failure.

For me that's the crux.

If some future NBA, 8'3", star learns to leap 4mtrs into the air and latch a hold that no-one else could ever climb to, would it count?

I'd contend that 11a (or even 10a), will ever be so controversial and restricted to such a small sample of humanity, as to be meaningless.

Unless we have substantial genetic/bionic/tech modifications to contend with...

I don't know how to say this politely but i really don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. The difference between 7a and 8a is roughly the same as the difference between 8a and 9a i.e. huge and  to say that grades move in ever decreasing increments is to betray your ignorance. If anything people at the top end will hold grades down until there is a step change (obviously we forgot this with E grades) making it possible to talk about bottom end and top end of said grades. Your contention earlier that there isn't much difference between an 8b and the top end is strange to say the least. Well there is a difference and it is about 30 years.

[cowboyhat]

I dont want to sound like a miserable old c**t but

Then don't.

Of course its not significant in a world wide Adam Ondra, Usain Bolt sense but whats wrong with giving a kid some encouragement you miserable old cunt?

Jim is about 5'4" ATM, it is a flipping good effort. He's also pretty grounded, humble even, and probably won''t be phased reading this thread.

However gme your comment! This takes me back over twenty years to when I was that age. I quit the comps and actively avoided trying to get into any sort of Sheffield scene because of the negative bitchy environment that prevailed.

They are thinking big GME, despite this sort of negative bullshit. Some will be put off altogether, others will think fuck you I'll do it on my own.

FFS what has this got to do with the so called Sheffield scene, did it steal your toys from your pram???. its nothing to do with Sheffield or its so called scene, i am i fact kind of having a go at the whole UK scene, of which Sheffield is part of unless its voted for some kind of Scottish type independence. I have not been bitchy or given negative bullshit in anyway at all. I commented on the reporting of this in reply to others questioning as to whether it warranted its own thread. I did not say anything negative about Jims ascent, rather i have complimented all along.

I personally think, and you obviously don't agree with me, that over-hyping young sports people can have a negative effect on there long term performance and that the UK climbing media can be guilty of this. Others would agree with me as if you google "over hyping young athletes" you will find numerous articles on the subject. There is a huge difference between encouragement and over hyping and i think that the UK climbing media is, and has been for some time, guilty of the latter.

If you dont agree with me cowboyhat i am sorry for that, how about putting some points forward to counter my argument rather than just accusing me of being bitchy or part of a fictitious scene that obviously upset you in the past.

Ok I'll write a blog about it, and I will send you a link.

And yes I realise I over reacted, I have my own baggage so to speak.

'that over-hyping young sports people can have a negative effect on there long term performance and that the UK climbing media can be guilty of this', obviously nothing. I agree, its a fine balance. Often this will be be the effect it may or may not have on the individual involved, it is personality. How do you know how this kid will react?

In your other post you said 'The fact that a lot of people in the UK are still really impressed by this is part of why we are so far behind the rest of the world in sports climbing.'

This ties in with the 'media' (being ukb/c and mags, formerly just mags), and its a complex issue. I'm interested to hear what you think the other parts are, I had a lengthy chat with DemoHatch in the wall the other night on this exact topic and I was going to write it down.

[Oldmanmatt]

.

If some future NBA, 8'3", star learns to leap 4mtrs into the air and latch a hold that no-one else could ever climb to, would it count?

An 8'3" man wouldn't even be able to hold a pull-up bar one handed, never mind catching it after jumping. And forget about muscling up on the hold and topping out.

I'll go as far as saying that there will never be a boulder-problem with a top-out that a 8'3" man can do, that I cannot do.

I digress. But that's on purpose.

Nothing wrong with digression, that's a UKB norm.😝

So... Poor example, granted.

However, where do you draw the line between "Freaky" and "within human capacity"?

It's not an important question, I just wonder.

It's a shame that the only way to find out if too much positive encouragement is detrimental (or the inverse) is to act it out in reality.

Hopefully Jim just doesn't give a shit, climbs because he likes climbing and not for approbation.
I hope his success spurs him to try something harder soon.

[shark]

Matt, I'm really not sure what you are getting yourself worked up about here.

News by definition is something that is extraordinary or unusually interesting. This is a national audience (and Nibs + Sasquatch) and the level of interest/extraordinariness regarding redpoints has to be placed in context to the current state of play. In context Jim's ascent is something that is on the fringe of being newsworthy.

I agree with whoever commented that this more suited to the significant repeats thread rather than deserving a new thread on its own. For example Ellis Butler-Barker at 17 has recently onsighted 8b and redpointed 8c which I dont think got mentioned on the significant repeats thread let alone a separate news thread.

Making these sort of points arent to put Jim down (or young people in general) but to place his achievement in context though it is often construed as such when this sort of thing crops up.

[Stubbs]

I'm also not sure about how starting a new topic on UKB counts as 'overhyping' either. If people aren't interested in topics they will fade into the background.

It would be interesting to look at youths who have been formerly hyped/overhyped in the British climbing media, and how they've got on since. I guess the more positive examples such as Tyler and Shauna spring to mind more readily than those who might not have gone on to achieve the same success.

Oh and Cowboyhat, count me in for a link to your origin story blogpost!

[lurcher]

As for over-hyping this chap, I don't see a hint of that, we's probably and quite rightly absolutely full of himself for nailing a pretty seminal route and the proper reaction should be along the lines of 'Id' buy you a pint but you're too young'. Do the media over hype things ? Yes, of course they do, do you uinderstand how the media operates?

I rolled up at the right side of the Tor yesterday when Jim (didnt know it was him- just thought it was a random small boy...) walked down and  when asked  casually mentioned that he'd just done his first 8b and  admitted he was pretty pleased...   Very low key about it, didnt seem to be shouting about it, just chuffed as anyone would be.

It's missing the point though to say 'news' as it hasn't been reported as such has it?- just a big up from a mate for him on the forums ?  Personally I think its borderline news/ significant repeat, but as others have said its pretty unlikely that he doesn't know where he stands relating to others achievements if thats what motivates him.   

[gme]

Ok I'll write a blog about it, and I will send you a link.

And yes I realise I over reacted, I have my own baggage so to speak.

'that over-hyping young sports people can have a negative effect on there long term performance and that the UK climbing media can be guilty of this', obviously nothing. I agree, its a fine balance. Often this will be be the effect it may or may not have on the individual involved, it is personality. How do you know how this kid will react?

In your other post you said 'The fact that a lot of people in the UK are still really impressed by this is part of why we are so far behind the rest of the world in sports climbing.'

This ties in with the 'media' (being ukb/c and mags, formerly just mags), and its a complex issue. I'm interested to hear what you think the other parts are, I had a lengthy chat with DemoHatch in the wall the other night on this exact topic and I was going to write it down.
[/quote]



Please do send me a link to your blog if you write something as i am genuinely interested, hence why I commented in the first place. Despite what you might think I didn't do it to disparage a young climbers ascent.

I have no idea what effect it will have on this individual as i dont know them, it can go both ways. I do know however, both 1st hand and anecdotally, that in many cases the big fish in the small pond that gets transferred to the big pond often retreats back to where it is more comfortable rather than accepting its new position and trying to grow. This is often caused, or made worse, by the childs abilities being overplayed by parents and media.

I suppose its the ones that can deal with being a small fish that go on to become the very best.

[turnipturned]

Good effort Jim Pope

My opinion on the topic. I agree, 8b by a 15 year old is not highly significant however in the UK we are in a total “Catch 22” hence the reason why this is still considered significant.

There is no financial support for young climbers in the UK, therefore most of the time climbing has to be done within the UK. UK does not have loads of hard routes or boulders, so you are very limited in what you can try, and when conditions are thrown in there, this ultimately all limits progression. Furthermore, generally speaking, most modern UK climbing walls are tailored towards steep climbing on positive holds, which does not reflect the majority of rock we have in the UK. Thats why you get people going aboard doing 9a’s, 8B+ etc, but still not doing them over here in the UK.

Further to this we have this completely weird negative attitude in the UK, that if you promote yourself you are frowned upon, sell out, uncool etc. etc. We seem to like this ‘undeground’ ‘keep it to yourself’ image, which does absolutely nothing to help the “UK Scene” develop and grow. 

So all in all, I would argue that this is nationally significant.

Good effort Jim Pope, keep it up,  don't be put off by negativity in the UK climbing scene.

[gme]

Good effort Jim Pope, keep it up,  don't be put off by negativity in the UK climbing scene.
[/quote]


No one is being negative.

[turnipturned]

Granted, I was referring to the bigger picture, not just this post.

Good effort Jim Pope, keep it up,  don't be put off by negativity in the UK climbing scene.

No one is being negative.
[/quote]

[Stubbs]

If you dont agree with me cowboyhat i am sorry for that, how about putting some points forward to counter my argument

In terms of facts GME, how many ascents of 8b's have there been by <16 year olds in the UK? How low would the number have to be to make this ascent newsworthy?

Did your young padawan climb 8b at 15 or was he still trialaleting?

[SA Chris]

I agree with whoever commented that this more suited to the significant repeats thread rather than deserving a new thread on its own.

Move original post to "significant repeats", move rest to logpile?

And then move on...

[shark]

I agree with whoever commented that this more suited to the significant repeats thread rather than deserving a new thread on its own.

Move original post to "significant repeats"

That's what I should have done originally 

Mind you - so should Dave seeing he was first to reply 

[tomtom]

Logpile please - my eyes are bleeding. Or can everyone just promise not to post any more ~ then it will fade into the chipwrappers and detritus of old UKB threads...

[gme]

Why logpile?

I enjoy the way that UKB topics drift off there original subjects and this is interesting to me. If anyone bothers to read it they will soon be aware that its nothing to do with the original title. Logpiling something because it might upset someone is not what UKB is about surely.

There is nothing controversial said, its not having ago at any individual and its talking about media portrayal of UK climbing and its potential effect on development. Surely at least as interesting as most of the shite we prattle on about on here every day. And if not being interesting to people is a reason to logpile something then the whole site is a bit fucked.

[Stubbs]

What GME said, people who aren't interested in the topic are free not to open it!

[Oldmanmatt]

I don't know how to say this politely but i really don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. The difference between 7a and 8a is roughly the same as the difference between 8a and 9a i.e. huge and  to say that grades move in ever decreasing increments is to betray your ignorance. If anything people at the top end will hold grades down until there is a step change (obviously we forgot this with E grades) making it possible to talk about bottom end and top end of said grades. Your contention earlier that there isn't much difference between an 8b and the top end is strange to say the least. Well there is a difference and it is about 30 years.

That's polite enough.

It's not as if I can see into the future.
And more than happy to admit that I could be way, way off base.

Our ability to climb, it would seem logical to say, must ultimately be limited by our physiology and therefore finite.
So there must at some point come a "hardest grade it is possible for a human to climb" is achieved. Without considerable evolution/genetic modification, of course and that might be possible soon.

I think you're right about the time spans/effort/training that it takes to progress from 8a to 9a and how it reflects the difference between 7a and 8a.

But.

But anything which is approaching it's physical limits must become influenced by ever smaller variables.

I don't know how much further it can go, but there will come a point where, even if you could stage the exact conditions and ability of the climber, you may never achieve a repeat ascent, because something too minor to be observable is not the same.

So, I'd still contend that there must be an end point. A maximum grade, beyond which humans cannot progress.

Maybe I've implied that somehow the difference between grades gets smaller, that's not what I meant.
I mean that it takes a greater and greater effort to shave less and less from the block of "possible".

Think of a sprinter. The margins shaved from the world record time become smaller and smaller as each generation passes. The effort required to beat that target will only increase.

How can climbing be different?

And it's taken me so long to draft this on a busy afternoon that I've probably missed half the conversation...

[Oldmanmatt]

Matt, I'm really not sure what you are getting yourself worked up about here.

News by definition is something that is extraordinary or unusually interesting. This is a national audience (and Nibs + Sasquatch) and the level of interest/extraordinariness regarding redpoints has to be placed in context to the current state of play. In context Jim's ascent is something that is on the fringe of being newsworthy.

I agree with whoever commented that this more suited to the significant repeats thread rather than deserving a new thread on its own. For example Ellis Butler-Barker at 17 has recently onsighted 8b and redpointed 8c which I dont think got mentioned on the significant repeats thread let alone a separate news thread.

Making these sort of points arent to put Jim down (or young people in general) but to place his achievement in context though it is often construed as such when this sort of thing crops up.

Not worked up!

Debate is the spice of life!

And always prepared to change an opinion. It's probably typing between customers on a busy day, leaving my turn of phrase off kilter!

[kelvin]

UKB works a 'little/lot' different to ukc in that for most subjects, there's already a thread. I suspect the OP wasn't aware of this when he posted and give no thought to the matter, he's only made two posts after all.

Well done Jim, it's mighty impressive and I'd say a significant repeat. Well, that's where I'd like to have read about it.

[Oldmanmatt]

Matt, I'm really not sure what you are getting yourself worked up about here.

News by definition is something that is extraordinary or unusually interesting. This is a national audience (and Nibs + Sasquatch) and the level of interest/extraordinariness regarding redpoints has to be placed in context to the current state of play. In context Jim's ascent is something that is on the fringe of being newsworthy.

I agree with whoever commented that this more suited to the significant repeats thread rather than deserving a new thread on its own. For example Ellis Butler-Barker at 17 has recently onsighted 8b and redpointed 8c which I dont think got mentioned on the significant repeats thread let alone a separate news thread.

Making these sort of points arent to put Jim down (or young people in general) but to place his achievement in context though it is often construed as such when this sort of thing crops up.

Not worked up!

Debate is the spice of life!

And always prepared to change an opinion. It's probably typing between customers on a busy day, leaving my turn of phrase off kilter!

Oh, and Ellis is seriously good.
I'm expecting great things from him.

Shame he's not talking to me anymore.

Sometimes in life you just say things the wrong way and piss people off.
I'm rather good at that.