[Oldmanmatt]

And if we don't agree on what our own sport is, the mainstream media will never get it.

A feature not a bug, surely?

Oh yes! I love it, that was written with a smile.

May it never change.

[Bonjoy]

A lot of posts about a minor admin failure. OP should have been merged with significant repeats thread (the original point of which was to flag up noteworthy ascent which might not merit a thread of their own). Bit late now really I guess.

[petejh]

So, raising the profile of local achievement, that might not rank highly on the world stage and may have a detrimental head swell effect on the achiever; might also garner them some support/sponsorship.

This in turn, will upset "Climber group x" because that's just commercialising the sport...

That's not what it's about at all - it's about crediting notable levels of performance and understanding where things sit in context. And it also isn't - as some people seem unable to grasp - about being negative or uncomplimentary.
I actually think a more negative mindset is to give out (and expect) easy platitudes and hype for doing 'relatively' unremarkable things. And a more positive mindset is to try to raise expectation levels by expecting high standards of achievement.
'Climber group x', as you put it, can just see that climbing an 8a+/b, at any age over 13 and below 60, isn't athletically noteworthy these days. All personal achievements warrant celebration and the praise of your friends, this doesn't warrant any more than that; and I don't think JP is seeking it, it's just his name attached to an interesting thread. 
Talk of 'garnering sponsorship and support' - for achieving relatively unremarkable levels of climbing performance is exactly the point gme is making about diluted expectations 'potentially' leading to holding down achievement levels.

[Teaboy]

That's not what it's about at all - it's about crediting notable levels of performance and understanding where things sit in context.

Maybe we should start with where this site sits in context then. It's a UK based forum frequented (mostly) by UK climbers so I'd have thought anything decent in a UK context is worthy of a thread, it's not as if this site is inundated with news threads. If ascents have their own thread I think people are more likely to discuss them as the Significant Repeats thread is almost too iconic to be allow much discussion about individual ascents reported on it. As can be seen if an ascent has its own thread then there's room for the discussion to breathe. Furthermore, we all like to think of ourselves as pretty knowledgable about climbing so surely on this, of all sites, we're able to put our own filter on what is being recorded.

As for the argument that early (misplaced?) plaudits leads to youngsters slackening off this can be argued both ways. Did Ondra suffer daily beatings and told he wasn't good enough or was he praised for his talent from an early age? Did the Czech Republic have a particularly high reporting bar for ascents by youngsters when he was growing up? If the external factors were so important in his development then why has the same system not turned out a load more 'Ondras'. It's down to the individual how they react and perform following raise and criticism.

Personally, I like reading about climbers doing routes so if this site becomes one where only world class ascents are recorded then it's of less interest to me (unless I get offered job as news editor in which case it's easy street!). I know there's the sig reps thread but it sounds like a general raising of the bar across the site is being considered.

Sorry for the ramble, if I had a proper keyboard it'd be twice as long

[Oldmanmatt]

So, raising the profile of local achievement, that might not rank highly on the world stage and may have a detrimental head swell effect on the achiever; might also garner them some support/sponsorship.

This in turn, will upset "Climber group x" because that's just commercialising the sport...

That's not what it's about at all - it's about crediting notable levels of performance and understanding where things sit in context. And it also isn't - as some people seem unable to grasp - about being negative or uncomplimentary.
I actually think a more negative mindset is to give out (and expect) easy platitudes and hype for doing 'relatively' unremarkable things. And a more positive mindset is to try to raise expectation levels by expecting high standards of achievement.
'Climber group x', as you put it, can just see that climbing an 8a+/b, at any age over 13 and below 60, isn't athletically noteworthy these days. All personal achievements warrant celebration and the praise of your friends, this doesn't warrant any more than that; and I don't think JP is seeking it, it's just his name attached to an interesting thread. 
Talk of 'garnering sponsorship and support' - for achieving relatively unremarkable levels of climbing performance is exactly the point gme is making about diluted expectations 'potentially' leading to holding down achievement levels.

You're missing my wry chuckle, as I type, that indicates my love of this sport and it's general similarity to herding pissed off cats in a thunderstorm.

Although, by support, I meant hopefully some wall owner/manager gives him free training. Maybe a coach is working with him. Someone is helping out with equipment etc.

"Climbing group x" is just an illustration of the range and diversity, within the community, not a dig at anyone who commented here.

My point is.

That there is merit to both the Praise and Don't praise approaches.

That climbing contains at least groups a-z (inc group x) and a myriad of subsets, who's only real connection is ascending rocks.

That "Grade" is a damn subjective term and means different things across the community.

And this has been two days worth of interesting conversation, all because someone posted to the wrong section (point agreed).

Finally, from me anyway, I have a sneaking suspicion each of us is having a slightly different conversation...

[Muenchener]

As for the argument that early (misplaced?) plaudits leads to youngsters slackening off this can be argued both ways. Did Ondra suffer daily beatings and told he wasn't good enough or was he praised for his talent from an early age? Did the Czech Republic have a particularly high reporting bar for ascents by youngsters when he was growing up? If the external factors were so important in his development then why has the same system not turned out a load more 'Ondras'. It's down to the individual how they react and perform following raise and criticism.

I imagine Adam Ondra would have felt patronised or amused if anybody had patted him on the head for redpointing 8b at the age of 15

[Luke Owens]

Shall we start an Insignificant Repeats thread?

Also, shall we start ignoring personal achievement in the YYFY thread unless it's a post about climbing 9a in less than an hour? 

[Doylo]

An hour?! Fuckin punter

[a dense loner]

Personal achievements are for the yes yes fucking yes thread

[Jaspersharpe]

This really is a load of bollocks.

[petejh]

If somebody posts in the YYFY thread about doing 9a in an hour then they should be aggressively rounded on by the duty cyberprovost for incorrectly choosing YYFY instead of either Sig Repeats or a dedicated news thread and take an automatic -ve 5 karma hit for poor skills.

[Sloper]

Bollocks, they should be forced to provide unedited video footage or suffer the pit of doom (i.e. listening to me talk about fiscal policy in a globalised economy and its effect on the sustainability of welfare payments) either that or wear pain au chocolates for their next redpoint.

This thread is great.

[butters]

Bollocks, they should be forced to provide unedited video footage or suffer the pit of doom (i.e. listening to me talk about fiscal policy in a globalised economy and its effect on the sustainability of welfare payments) either that or wear pain au chocolates for their next redpoint.

This thread is great.

Bloody sure I haven't done 9a in under or over an hour but I will still have to suffer you talking about fiscal policy in a globalised economy and its effect on the sustainability of welfare payments this weekend.... 

 

[tomtom]

Bollocks, they should be forced to provide unedited video footage or suffer the pit of doom (i.e. listening to me talk about fiscal policy in a globalised economy and its effect on the sustainability of welfare payments) either that or wear pain au chocolates for their next redpoint.

This thread is great.

Bloody sure I haven't done 9a in under or over an hour but I will still have to suffer you talking about fiscal policy in a globalised economy and its effect on the sustainability of welfare payments this weekend.... 

Take earplugs and rohypnol with you. Your choice who gets the drug

[Sloper]

Bollocks, they should be forced to provide unedited video footage or suffer the pit of doom (i.e. listening to me talk about fiscal policy in a globalised economy and its effect on the sustainability of welfare payments) either that or wear pain au chocolates for their next redpoint.

This thread is great.

Bloody sure I haven't done 9a in under or over an hour but I will still have to suffer you talking about fiscal policy in a globalised economy and its effect on the sustainability of welfare payments this weekend.... 

Deal, if you don't play Drum & Bass then I'll STFU about politics and economics.

[petejh]

Maybe we should start with where this site sits in context then. It's a UK based forum frequented (mostly) by UK climbers so I'd have thought anything decent in a UK context is worthy of a thread, it's not as if this site is inundated with news threads.

Do add your own posts highlighting your personal climbing accomplishments - as satisfying as they no doubt are - to the news section and see what response you get. How about I post an individual thread on the news section when I send my new 8a on the diamond. I expect congratulations from you!

As for the argument that early (misplaced?) plaudits leads to youngsters slackening off this can be argued both ways. Did Ondra suffer daily beatings and told he wasn't good enough or was he praised for his talent from an early age?

As far as I know nobody has mentioned daily beatings so why exaggerate - or are they one of the exercises in Gimmee Kraft? I doubt very much that a 15 year-old Adam Ondra was either seeking nor receiving much praise for redpointing an 8a+/b.

Personally, I like reading about climbers doing routes so if this site becomes one where only world class ascents are recorded then it's of less interest to me (unless I get offered job as news editor in which case it's easy street!). I know there's the sig reps thread but it sounds like a general raising of the bar across the site is being considered.

Personally, I'm not into reading 'news' about lots of climbers doing lots of routes that get done lots of times by lots of people. I wouldn't argue against a general raising of the bar for what all climbing media, online and print, consider 'news'. Call me the Scott Semple of ukb, I think the bar is currently a bit low, and I also think it's too easily blurred by the phenomena of personality - halo effect etc. Nationally (so this site's news) I think the bar should be at a level around 8c+/9a & E9/10.
Regionally (YYFY on here, area reports in mags, if they still exist etc.) it's all good and all of interest - local routes for local people.

[Oldmanmatt]

So.

Jim did alright today.
Brit champ.

Could do better next time, mind you...



Sorry, couldn't resist.😜

[Vince Mcnally]

Yep

We'll done Jim

[Stu Littlefair]

British *junior* champ. Let's not hype the lad unduly. Or he'll never achieve anything.

[a dense loner]

Yep junior champ. It's not hype or unduly, it's what he is

[Stu Littlefair]

Dense, did you leave your sense of humour in your pants on a hot wash or something

[a dense loner]

Lord no why would you ask that? The nets a strange place for jokes innit?