[Sloper]

With all the kerfuffle north of the border, the subject of devolution in England seems to be rising up the political agenda, personally I can't see any merit in a further tier of government and more politicians and public servants, the last thing we need is a version of the system in France, although Vanilla Slice would be an appropriate option on the ballot paper (if designed by UKB, along of course with the Pink Anasazi Party).

Anyway, what are the collective views on an independent Northumbria, Mercia and so on?

[danm]

I'm not so sure about devolution as such, but a greater say and influence locally about how we run our affairs would be good. Read yesterday that Greater Manchester has a bigger economy than Wales, yet it has very little say about how to shape its future. Remember the saga about the Tram extension, for example?

[SA Chris]

Looks like if it goes to a yes, then Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles want a break from the rest of Scotland too. Along with a lot of the oil and gas which is effectively in "their" waters.

[Fultonius]

Come on Chris - do you really believe that? 

If they did stay part of the rUK there is a lot of debate if they would be subject to the "Median Line" rules for seabed ownership (resulting in about 50% of "Scotland's" O&G), or, alternatively a 12 nm EEZ. I expect a huge bun fight.

Alternatively, since legally Sheltand and the Orkney are only "on loan" from Denmark and Norway [according to many sources], we could all lose them if the Danes can prove ownership and pay the outstanding dowry.

Another huge bun fight 

It would be very hard for the danes or the norwegians to claim any more than a 12nm zone though, as there is no way those islands could be considered to be "extensions" of Norway or Denmark. 

[SA Chris]

Come on Chris - do you really believe that? 

Believe what? That they want independence? Yes, they want it, will they get it though?


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/10705477/Shetland-and-Orkney-should-get-vote-on-whether-to-leave-Scotland.html

[a dense loner]

Was going to point this out the other wk but couldn't be bothered. I know a few people from Shetlands who aren't happy about the way other islands have been treated by Scotland's attempts at whatever they've been trying, all say they'll go for Norwegian sovereinty. I didn't really listen but the upshot was if they can do it why can't we we've no allegiance to them

[Fultonius]

http://news.sky.com/story/1333933/scotland-yes-vote-gaining-ground-on-islands

If the Shetlanders want self determination then that's all good for them - I'm not going to say "We can have it, but you can't". Unfortunately for them, they'd need to convince the new Scottish government to have another referendum. Do you see that happening?

[SA Chris]

It all depends on the outcome this week. I guess if they vote in favour, what grounds have the Socttish government got to say no?

[Fultonius]

If the Highlands, or the Borders or the village of Aboyne voted 55% no and 45% yes would we have to start splitting the country up unto smaller and smaller pieces? No. We're one country and, unless the Danes/Norwegians can legally claim ownership then the Sheltanders have to accept what the country decides as a whole.

[Sloper]

I'm not so sure about devolution as such, but a greater say and influence locally about how we run our affairs would be good. Read yesterday that Greater Manchester has a bigger economy than Wales, yet it has very little say about how to shape its future. Remember the saga about the Tram extension, for example?

Yes, I recall that virtually no one trusted the council and the investment that would only happen with a congestion charge has happened in any event.

The difficulty with places havigna  much greater degree of autonomy is that many of them are in effect 'one party states' (and that includes some Tory areas too not a party political point)

[SA Chris]

No. We're one country

So you are the authority on this?

Spain is one country, the Basques want independence, Yugosalvia was one country when I was last there, likewise Czechoslovakia. Borders and names are arbitrary and change all the time.

[petejh]

Unfortunately for them, they'd need to convince the new Scottish government to have another referendum. Do you see that happening?

It seems as soon as you put 'i' in front of anything the inevitable consequence is people expecting a new version within a year.

[danm]

I'm not so sure about devolution as such, but a greater say and influence locally about how we run our affairs would be good. Read yesterday that Greater Manchester has a bigger economy than Wales, yet it has very little say about how to shape its future. Remember the saga about the Tram extension, for example?

Yes, I recall that virtually no one trusted the council and the investment that would only happen with a congestion charge has happened in any event.

The difficulty with places havigna  much greater degree of autonomy is that many of them are in effect 'one party states' (and that includes some Tory areas too not a party political point)

Not sure who these no ones were - didn't Manchester go cap in hand for money for the extension and get told to piss off, until there was a massive outcry? Someone published the expenditure per capita on infrastructure for the SE and Manchester and the government backed down.

[Fultonius]

If they manage to push a referendum through the newly formed Scottish government then well done to them.

[a dense loner]

Are you saying if they can't then fuck them they belong to you?

[tomtom]

Unfortunately for them, they'd need to convince the new Scottish government to have another referendum. Do you see that happening?

It seems as soon as you put 'i' in front of anything the inevitable consequence is people expecting a new version within a year.

I'll suggest that to the iWife

[Fultonius]

Are you saying if they can't then fuck them they belong to you?

No. But, as far as my limited grasp of international law manages - unless the Scottish government "allowed" a referendum (like the UK government "allowed" this current one) then no one else would recognise their sovereignty. You cant just go around declaring independence all over the shop!

I could see the Scottish government saying - "fine, have your independence,"  or "ok, go and join rUK" but if they go, my (again limited) grasp of international low would seem to suggest that they would get 12 nm of seabed and precisely fuck all oil. Do you reckon they'll all still be clamouring for a independence after that?

If someone has more detailed knowledge of the intricacies of these matters, then please enlighten me.

[a dense loner]

I'm not arguing with you I'm just pointing out what the average man in the street has said, obviously the average Shetland man will be a farmer or rig worker who has no idea they've only got 12nm and would probably look very embarrassed when they found out.
Unfortunately i'm not really clever enough to start thinking about international law either 

[Sloper]

CAn we leave Scotland to the other thread and consider whether a devolved Government of Yorkshire would be a good thing, after all the corridor of uncertainty might have to change for the corridor of power.

[tomtom]

We already have a devolved form of governance in the UK. Councils and local authorities.

But - they are financially hamstrung by Westminster (a legacy from Thatchers age - where Liverpool and GLC (not Goldie looking chain for the younger reader - the Greater London Council) had some power and were a thorn in her side). Their means for raising money (from memory) includes

Block grant from Govt.
Council tax (capped and limited by Govt)
Business rates (only so much you can screw out of your retailers)
Parking tickets etc..

Give them more fiscal freedom to do something about it - and things might change... but you then present an opportunity for a rival economic and/or political centre to develop in the UK..... So I doubt it will happen in any great shape or form..

I can't help but comment here on the ideological hypocrisy of our present Government. I thought right wing ideals were to let the market dictate matters - a light touch of central government. Instead we have a Government that micro manages and interferes with every single aspect of how money is spent across England.

[SA Chris]

CAn we leave Scotland to the other thread

No. We're all going to use this thread to discuss things which are of interest only to us. Annoying when people do that isn't it.