UKBouldering.com

Fell running (Read 142904 times)

T_B

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2520
  • Karma: +118/-5
#1125 Re: Fell running
November 15, 2018, 12:32:18 pm
Thanks for the replies.

Interesting how many folk are in for the Trigger!

I spent a fair bit of time trawling through the Fellrunner website yesterday evening and am also looking at:

Doctors Gate in February. Heard good things about the first one that was earlier this year.

I will probably enter Edale Skyline this year. I think.

I'd like to do Coniston in May. The descent has a bit of a reputation I believe.

Good tip on Cautley, plus there's the Howgills race as part of the champs this year.

Eskdale Elevation looks like an interesting route in that it only has a couple of check points. It gets a small turnout.

Good to see someone's taken on the Anniversary Waltz and that this (now called Newland's Memorial Fell Race) will be running the same weekend together with the Teenager, in April. I have done the Teenager course as a recce as far as Hindscarth + AW and would love to be fit enough to do that as the time of year suits (it's the Easter weekend in 2019). Same crazy descent off Whiteless Pike as on Buttermere as ajh mentions above.

I'm not going to plan anything for after the summer so the Mountain Trial is out. I've found out twice now that I'm totally off the pace in September having been away all August on holiday. That said, I would love to do a race in Europe as part of the family summer trip with the Salomon Ubaye Trail being on the radar.

Monolith

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Straight outta Cronton.
  • Posts: 3885
  • Karma: +213/-6
#1126 Re: Fell running
November 16, 2018, 11:46:39 am
Good schedule Tom! So pleased to hear about the AW and TWA races.

I'm just trying to build weekly mileage and ascent up now we have our bridge pass for free travel to Frodsham. Finally have regular access to hills so a very happy chappy!

Take a look at the Ras Yr Aran race in March Tom. 5 miles out, 5 miles back, it's brilliant. The weather can get a bit spicy and being one of the first AM races of the season, this only adds to the excitement. Easy nav in the main.

T_B

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2520
  • Karma: +118/-5
#1127 Re: Fell running
November 16, 2018, 12:06:07 pm
That looks mega Tom (just had a look on Google Earth). Exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. Somewhere off the beaten track.Will keep that one in mind for sure.

Monolith

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Straight outta Cronton.
  • Posts: 3885
  • Karma: +213/-6
#1128 Re: Fell running
November 16, 2018, 01:30:48 pm
It is Tom honestly. I've done it twice now and really relish its approach every year. To me it feels as though it marks the start of the season after putting those dark, wet winter miles in during training.

There are a few in the series so I'd like to try some of the others next year where possible: http://www.run-meirionnydd.co.uk/ourraces.html


fatneck

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2651
  • Karma: +115/-2
  • Fishing Helm
    • Blog of Fatneck
#1129 Re: Fell running
November 16, 2018, 01:39:31 pm
Not planning to enter many events next year but I may enter the Edale 98 Edges. I'm hoping to complete the Sandstone Trail at some stage next year and put some work into the Welsh 3,000 course with a view to doing it in 2020.

Monolith

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Straight outta Cronton.
  • Posts: 3885
  • Karma: +213/-6
#1130 Re: Fell running
November 16, 2018, 02:53:02 pm
Not planning to enter many events next year but I may enter the Edale 98 Edges. I'm hoping to complete the Sandstone Trail at some stage next year and put some work into the Welsh 3,000 course with a view to doing it in 2020.

Good work lid. I'd be happy to trot around the 3,000 course with you and similarly have a few afternoons out on sections of the Sandstone Trail. It's high time we ran together eh!?

SA Chris

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 23526
  • Karma: +492/-10
    • http://groups.msn.com/ChrisClix
#1131 Re: Fell running
February 22, 2019, 04:52:30 pm
Not really fell running as such, but I've got a ballot place in the London Marathon on the day of my 50th, so decided to raise some money for RNLI.

https://mydonate.bt.com/fundraisers/chrisfryervmlm2019

Donate a few quid if you fancy, and if anyone is in town and fancies a beer afterwards, give me a shout.

SA Chris

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 23526
  • Karma: +492/-10
    • http://groups.msn.com/ChrisClix
#1132 Re: Fell running
February 28, 2019, 04:41:08 pm
The fasting thread prompted me to post this, i read it a while back.

https://www.runultra.co.uk/Articles/December-2016/Runners-All-you-need-to-know-about-ketosis-and-fat

Does anyone do / has anyone tried this?

reeve

Offline
  • ***
  • stalker
  • Posts: 257
  • Karma: +45/-1
#1133 Re: Fell running
February 28, 2019, 08:58:39 pm
Hi Chris

When I was training for the Glen Coe Skyline the other year I was fairly mindful of this. I definitely didn't go full ketogenic diet, but I did do some fasted runs (1-2 times a week) of up to 15 miles or so. I have only skim read the article you linked to, but that approach seems consistent with what I did. I think it worked for me, as the GCS was loads further and loads more height gain than anything I'd done before, so I knew I wasn't going to be sprinting any part of it but was going to be out all day, so being fat-adapted was very relevant. Comparing my splits to those who got a similar time to me, I had a stronger finish which I would partially attribute to this. I mostly read stuff on the uphill athlete site, if you're aware of that? Here's one: https://www.uphillathlete.com/train-to-burn-fat/ although there's a bunch of others.

Even though I'm not running at the moment I'd be really interested in what others make of it.

SA Chris

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 23526
  • Karma: +492/-10
    • http://groups.msn.com/ChrisClix
#1134 Re: Fell running
March 01, 2019, 09:27:31 am
Thanks Reeve, yep I had it specifically in mind for longer races like RoS and GCS (contemplating for next year!). And have Lairig Gru race in mind for later in the year.

I'll have a read, thanks.

T_B

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2520
  • Karma: +118/-5
#1135 Re: Fell running
March 01, 2019, 11:01:20 am
Horses for courses.

I've done a few fasted runs and anything over an hour with significant climb I've bonked massively. I think it would be a lot of work to become fat adapted and given I'm pretty much pescatarian, pretty tricky. I like carbs and the thought of eating tons of meat/fat/cream etc grosses me out. My wife was keto for a large part of last year and put it this way, I wouldn't want to eat what she ate!

In the world of ultra running there are some keto evangelists (e.g. Jeff Browning) who have performed better since switching to that diet, but they're few and far between compared to the vegan evangelists!

Look at what Kilian ate for his 24hr skimo ascent/descent record. Basically a ton of gels. I suspect he finished strongly ;).

I have very little experience of running for more than 5+ hours, but the one time I have and performed really well I think it was in part to a good nutrition (I ate something every hour). I'm lucky in that I can run 30 minutes after eating without issues and seem to be able to get down some solid food on the move (well, at least for the first couple of hours).
« Last Edit: March 01, 2019, 11:08:24 am by T_B »

steveri

Online
  • **
  • menacing presence
  • Posts: 196
  • Karma: +19/-0
  • Formerly adequate
    • Some poor pictures
#1136 Re: Fell running
March 01, 2019, 11:12:49 am
Being 'bellyful' adapted is a useful skill to have. When I was doing longer stuff more regularly I'd get up, get dressed have a drink and go ...or have something to eat, fanny about for a short while and go. Both useful strategies. It might be quite different if you're working harder but my long strategy is 'don't get out of breath'. I've struggled a couple of times through not eating enough, eg bad weather and you're concentrating too much on getting your head down. Even if you're making a mental note to eat every hour, it can soon pass too long if you're busy navigating or just in your own world with your hood up. Suspect I'm better suited to force feeding than being fat adapted.

It really takes all sorts - Nicky Spinks famously tucked into fish and chips on her double BGR. A mate of mine did his on nothing but Kendal Mint Cake. Not sure if he still has any teeth. https://www.trailrunningmag.co.uk/training/nutrition/article/nicky-spinks-double-bob-graham-diet

teestub

Offline
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Posts: 564
  • Karma: +56/-3
  • Cyber Wanker
#1137 Re: Fell running
March 01, 2019, 12:41:12 pm

Look at what Kilian ate for his 24hr skimo ascent/descent record. Basically a ton of gels. I suspect he finished strongly ;).


Hi Tom

Interesting that you chose Kilian as an example as he's widely reported as being exceedingly fat adapted.

Quote from: Kilian
Many times I run without having anything to eat beforehand and then the body adapts on ways to save energy and ways to use the energy in your body. If you are used to eating a lot all the time when you are running then if you run out of food or you miss a feed station in a race then your body is not adapted to performing without food. But if you are used to running for a long time without food your body is always saving some energy or using its stored energy to perform better.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/kilian-jornet-how-to-run-further-than-youve-ever-run-before/

The subject is covered well in Steve House's Training for the New Alpinism, and the dietary alterations required stop a long way short of Keto (I think 50% cals from fat?), and may well be quite achievable on a fish based diet without too much alteration (oily fish obviously have a decent amount of fat in them).

I'm sure I'm teaching you to suck eggs but the aim is to have both fat and carb burning pathways open (unlike keto) so that you can fuel longer lower intensity efforts mainly off fat (in House's world this is getting to the crux pitch on your alpine objective, but could easily be the flatter bits of a long run) and then fuel with carbs for more intensive parts of the day or training.

SA Chris

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 23526
  • Karma: +492/-10
    • http://groups.msn.com/ChrisClix
#1138 Re: Fell running
March 01, 2019, 12:56:50 pm
Being 'bellyful' adapted is a useful skill to have. When I was doing longer stuff more regularly I'd get up, get dressed have a drink and go ...or have something to eat, fanny about for a short while and go. Both useful strategies. It might be quite different if you're working harder but my long strategy is 'don't get out of breath'. I've struggled a couple of times through not eating enough, eg bad weather and you're concentrating too much on getting your head down. Even if you're making a mental note to eat every hour, it can soon pass too long if you're busy navigating or just in your own world with your hood up. Suspect I'm better suited to force feeding than being fat adapted.

It really takes all sorts - Nicky Spinks famously tucked into fish and chips on her double BGR. A mate of mine did his on nothing but Kendal Mint Cake. Not sure if he still has any teeth. https://www.trailrunningmag.co.uk/training/nutrition/article/nicky-spinks-double-bob-graham-diet

Some of the fuelling strategies for BGR make for interesting reading, many people swear by just going for something you really like and can eat any time; jam sandwiches for example.

I find on longer races i really need to feel like i have something in my stomach, as well as all the gels, flapjack, jelly babies etc, best I've found is some quality mini pork pies. They are compact, won't fall to bits and are easy to carry, and very filling, and I really like them. I've heard other people like taking them for the same reasons.

T_B

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2520
  • Karma: +118/-5
#1139 Re: Fell running
March 01, 2019, 01:13:06 pm

I'm sure I'm teaching you to suck eggs but the aim is to have both fat and carb burning pathways open (unlike keto) so that you can fuel longer lower intensity efforts mainly off fat (in House's world this is getting to the crux pitch on your alpine objective, but could easily be the flatter bits of a long run) and then fuel with carbs for more intensive parts of the day or training.

Far from it. I'm definitely no expert! I 'bonk' really easily. Even on a short recovery run after a long run/hard session the day before. Maybe that's cos I'm not fat-adapted at all?

Interesting topic. I like the idea of being like Kilian floating across the hills grabbing the odd blueberry for sustenance :lol:.

fatneck

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2651
  • Karma: +115/-2
  • Fishing Helm
    • Blog of Fatneck
#1140 Re: Fell running
March 01, 2019, 01:33:50 pm
A second vote for pork pies - food of champions!

Monolith

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Straight outta Cronton.
  • Posts: 3885
  • Karma: +213/-6
#1141 Re: Fell running
April 17, 2019, 11:48:48 am
Anybody in for the Newlands Memorial this Saturday? I will be if I can get a race entry. Always dropouts so should be ok. As usual, racing with no recent hills in the legs. Why do I do this.

T_B

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2520
  • Karma: +118/-5
#1142 Re: Fell running
April 17, 2019, 12:16:26 pm
It's actually very runnable, especially the final 6km from the top of High Spy which could be really fast if you have the legs. So, if you can bear to take it steady up Robinson you'll be reet. I got cramp when I ran last year, plus I was carrying a hamstring injury so it was a bit frustrating. The descent from Dale Head is ace. Would love to do it again but not this yr, sadly. Enjoy!

I won't talk about my disaster at the Howgills off the back of too much flat running and not enough hills  ;D
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 12:22:07 pm by T_B »

Monolith

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Straight outta Cronton.
  • Posts: 3885
  • Karma: +213/-6
#1143 Re: Fell running
April 17, 2019, 03:32:19 pm
It's actually one of the few routes I've reccied before and raced it a couple of years ago. Such a nice route eh Tom. Always remember that last section towards Catbells having a sting in the tail. Doubtless it'll be less of a sting and more of a flooring this year.

The Howgills intimidate me. So easy to look at them and do them a disservice. Fine work on getting stuck in however that ended beast!

Fultonius

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2911
  • Karma: +87/-1
  • Was strong but crap, now weaker but better.
    • Photos
#1144 Re: Fell running
April 17, 2019, 08:55:49 pm
Was down in Kendal today on a work training course and got the train down yesterday in just enough time for an hour's run. Went for a fairly flat out (for me!!) effort round Helfell and Scout scar and felt really good, like, really good for the first 5 or 6km and pretty good up to 8km. By 9km I was flagging a bit and I gave up running at 10km as my left knee was tightening up.

Aaaanyway, points being:  I've somewhat stupidly signed up for the Ring of Steall with a few mates this year. I reckon I should be ok, having done similar rounds of height gain and distance at a reasonable pace while munro bagging, but I'm trying to figure out the best plan. I don't have a lot of time to dedicate to training, and want to still have plenty time and energy for climbing so I was thinking of trying to do something like this:

1 x weekly 7 -10km easy pace run, preferably hilly but a lot of them will just be around Glasgow
1 x monthly >20km / >2000m fast hill walk with jogging of ridges and downhills, but trying to not push.
1 x fortnightly hill sprints or something of high intensity(shorter hilly run 3-5km etc.)

Chris mentioned getting sorted with nutrition and fluids, so I'll try to get a suitable light pack/vest  :sick: for carrying my water/layers/food etc.. I like this idea of eating/drinking before normal running as I do struggle with that a bit.

I'm not aiming for any kind of pace, just get round under the cut offs and hopefully not have my legs fall off.

Any thoughts?

T_B

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2520
  • Karma: +118/-5
#1145 Re: Fell running
April 17, 2019, 10:09:29 pm
With that little amount of running I wouldn’t bother risking any workouts/high intensity stuff. Maybe just do a more ‘sustained effort’ hilly run for your fortnightly run? I.e. your main aim being not to get injured.

Mixing running and climbing is a tricky business - good luck!

ajh

Offline
  • *
  • newbie
  • Posts: 23
  • Karma: +2/-0
#1146 Re: Fell running
April 18, 2019, 08:42:00 am
Anybody in for the Newlands Memorial this Saturday? I will be if I can get a race entry.

Entries have been reopened until 9pm this evening. I'll be going, it's one of my favourite races although I'm expecting it to hurt more than usual with the forecast temperatures/lack of wind allied to a pretty dire lack of fitness!

SA Chris

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 23526
  • Karma: +492/-10
    • http://groups.msn.com/ChrisClix
#1147 Re: Fell running
April 18, 2019, 09:09:47 am
I'll try to get a suitable light pack/vest  :sick: for carrying my water/layers/food etc..

FWIW your crashing at 10 km sounds like a nutrition issue? Did you eat much before or during?

Get yourself a decent race vest sooner rather than later so you get used to wearing one. Deacthlon have a few if you want to go budget, but if you have a decent running shop with a selection try a few on. I much prefer one with two chest straps to one for example. I got one of these https://www.wiggle.co.uk/inov-8-race-ultra-10/?sku=5360696379 and i can run OK without it bouncing about even with a small laptop in it.

Experiment with what gels work for you too, some are really rank and claggy, some are easy to get down. And I would focus on as many long days in the hills in the run up to the event, and do a couple of 10 k' ers during the week. Hill reps will help a bit, but be wary of coming back down (esp on tar).

And be wary of the knees! I have an intermittent issue with my right one, and wear a decathlon elastic support on long hill runs as a precautionary measure. Is that the leg you knackered? Maybe go back to doing some stabilising / strengthening exercises?

webbo

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4216
  • Karma: +100/-5
#1148 Re: Fell running
April 18, 2019, 09:46:55 am
I doubt that crashing at 10K will be a nutritional issues unless you didn’t eat for several days before the run. It will be a fitness thing going too hard early on and you couldn’t sustain that pace.

Fultonius

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2911
  • Karma: +87/-1
  • Was strong but crap, now weaker but better.
    • Photos
#1149 Re: Fell running
April 18, 2019, 06:11:50 pm
Cheers all.

I didn't really crash, it was more a case of outer knee issues (which I've had at others time when going too hard for too long) - local muscular endurance. My big muscles were still going fine.

Will happily swap out any hill reps for longer hilly runs :-)