[Will Hunt]

Now we're getting somewhere. So could we sum up the UKB Hive Mind point of view as being that:

Grouse shooting is fine, provided the keepers don't trap or poison raptors.

No issues raised on animal welfare - if this is the consensus then I'm with it. So long as the kill is clean and that whatever gets shot gets eaten its fine by me.

Maintaining the land in its current state is a good thing. We like the cultural landscape that we have. - Fine by me, but if the means to this end is patch burning then it ain't right.

Is that really the end of the debate? Gosh that was easy.

Turnip, what makes you say misleading? Chuck in your thoughts!

[Stubbs]

IMO shooting grouse is only 'fine' in relation to all the other animals killed for human amusement/consumption, viewed on its own it's as much of a ridiculous past time as foxhunting, or most other forms of hunting TBH. If they used bow and arrow so it was somewhat traditional and there was a modicum of skill involved then it may be slightly more understandable.

Regards the landscape, I'd love to see the moors allowed to grow as they wish, I assume large areas would stay as heather due to the soil types, etc. but it would be interesting to see the development over the years.

[andyd]

IMO shooting grouse is only 'fine' in relation to all the other animals killed for human amusement/consumption, viewed on its own it's as much of a ridiculous past time as foxhunting, or most other forms of hunting TBH. If they used bow and arrow so it was somewhat traditional and there was a modicum of skill involved then it may be slightly more understandable.

This is what I think, but I'm not expecting a 'hive mind point' if I understand the phrase correctly.

Regards the landscape, I'd love to see the moors allowed to grow as they wish, I assume large areas would stay as heather due to the soil types, etc. but it would be interesting to see the development over the years.

There's a distinct lack of gorse in my bit of Yorkshire (no complaints) but many of the heather areas I used to run about as a child at home on Dartmoor are now impenetrable as grazing/controlled burns have reduced in frequency.

[tomtom]

Why do we need to have a hive or collective POV? You secret pigeon holer you Will! I bet you write lots of lists too

[turnipturned]

Now we're getting somewhere. So could we sum up the UKB Hive Mind point of view as being that:

Grouse shooting is fine, provided the keepers don't trap or poison raptors.

To start with I do not agree with trapping or poisoning, however surely in a managed system everything has to be managed, take Langholm for an example. On the other hand the biggest impact to grouse population is probably Looping and Strongylosis not predators. Let’s hope DEFRA’s Hen Harrier Joint Action Plan can go some way to achieving a sustainable balance.

Regards the landscape, I'd love to see the moors allowed to grow as they wish, I assume large areas would stay as heather due to the soil types, etc. but it would be interesting to see the development over the years.

In terms of leaving Moorlands unmanaged, it would be lovely to see a mixture of shrub and naturally reseeded broadleaf woodlands but that probably would not happen, it would more likely be bracken with deer and rabbits taking care of  keeping it treeless. What is the best management for these areas? Unfortunately this is generally dictated by EU directives and money. Grouse shooting brings £100million a year to the UK economy and creates around 4000 jobs to remote rural areas, it’s viable hence the reason it happens.

Our whole countryside and our perceptions of it are pretty fucked up really.

It 'should' be a mixture of scrub and forest (of varying types - depending on altitude, climate and geology roughly..). Grazing - and managed moorland like Grouse stuff keeps it how it is... Of course the 'should' is all dependant upon our perception - and we tend to think pretty green fields with sheep in are what our countryside should look like.

Agreed.

Maintaining the land in its current state is a good thing. We like the cultural landscape that we have.

That riles me, 'we like the cultural landscape'.

[Johnny Brown]

I don't personally have an issue with shooting for sport. I wouldn't do it myself but I do eat meat, and I enjoy fishing which is not far removed.

My main objection to grouse shooting is that it is a business that is made only viable by breaking the law. I don't know of any business that is allowed to continue with criminal activity as part of its normal operations. If it can't be done legally then it should cease.

Secondly I think the farming/ shooting lobby is far too powerful in this country. Both businesses are heavily subsidised with very little value returned to the funding taxpayer. That a business should receive subsidy for 'stewardship' of the land when it is illegally killing raptors is beyond my comprehension, but it goes to show how powerful the lobbying is. Further irony is added when you look at the wealth of those owning the land.

Cutting and burning are bad for biodiversity, full stop. Heather monoculture is bad for biodiversity, but good for a couple of species such as Grouse. Bracken and scrub may not look as pretty but it is invariably more biodiverse. I would rather burning was much reduced, we have too little woodland in this country and if we get to the point where there is too much and too little heather moorland that can easily be reversed.

I was driving a Czech guy out to Stanage last month and he stared incredulously at the moors and said 'you don't like trees in England?' Make no mistake this is a cultural landscape and I don't particularly admire the culture that created it.