Quote from: Hydraulic Man on June 09, 2014, 12:07:39 pmOn another note I don't see many comments about the bolts that have gone in on Garage buttress that interfere with some of the older trad routes. Matrix and Flycatcher been the routes in question.......Perhaps worthy of a separate thread.The topos are on Gibson's site. Can you be specific about which bolts on which routes interfere http://www.sportsclimbs.co.uk/mainpages/peak/Garage%20Buttress.htmI recall Neil Foster has passed comment on some of the new bolts interfering with existing routes at one of the previous Peak Area meets and was considering whether to remove them.
On another note I don't see many comments about the bolts that have gone in on Garage buttress that interfere with some of the older trad routes. Matrix and Flycatcher been the routes in question.......Perhaps worthy of a separate thread.
One bolt on Dreamcatcher above the Pendulum break is on Flycatcher as is that routes belay. Flycatcher hardly a trade route but does not deserve retroing having had probably less than 5 true onsight ascents and if I recall from the sands of time the second was by NF and onsight!2 bolts in start of Reloaded are in Matrixs starting groove. Again no trade route but a good bold route in its day. Not sure if I Hate you bolts are interfering with the end of Matrix travers either. The first pitch of Aquiline must surely have bolts in now due to new route down that end of crag. Not living in the UK anymore what is the actual position on retro bolts in the Peak nowadays?
I'd prefer these routes that nobody is climbing to be left alone if it means that all the classic lime trad routes stay as they are. Go down the route you're suggesting and I can't see that they will.
Conversely by (retro)bolting a route it becomes popular and with traffic stays clean. I'm beginning to think that sadly wholesale retro bolting might prove to be the least worst outcome for hundreds of old neglected overgrown trad routes.
Quote from: shark on June 09, 2014, 06:43:09 pm Conversely by (retro)bolting a route it becomes popular and with traffic stays clean. I'm beginning to think that sadly wholesale retro bolting might prove to be the least worst outcome for hundreds of old neglected overgrown trad routes.Just out of interest, what is wrong with routes being reclaimed by nature if no-one wants to climb them?Does every bit of rock have to be climbed? I always think it is a weird view that if a route isn't climbed anymore we should bolt it so it gets climbed more. I understand that it's frustrating when a good trad route is dirty and unclimbable/enjoyable for those that want to climb it, but surely by bolting it effectively does the same thing for those wanting to go do the route?Its good to let nature take something back if no-one wants to go do the routes enough.Dunc
Just out of interest, what is wrong with routes being reclaimed by nature if no-one wants to climb them?Does every bit of rock have to be climbed? I always think it is a weird view that if a route isn't climbed anymore we should bolt it so it gets climbed more. I understand that it's frustrating when a good trad route is dirty and unclimbable/enjoyable for those that want to climb it, but surely by bolting it effectively does the same thing for those wanting to go do the route?Its good to let nature take something back if no-one wants to go do the routes enough.Dunc
After all, UK ethics seem to begin and end with the bolt when to my mind there are some things genuinely worth preserving like the Range West ground up ethic which seems to have gone for a burton without even a murmur of dissenting voices. Similarly, that cutting edge sea cliff routes are still being put up using pegs seems a bit more pernicious to me than giving some routes that no one cares about (other than on some abstract moral level) a new lease of life.
Obviously routes can be left unclimbed and they frequently are, go on any one star or less Lakes extreme and you'll see this for yourself. However, if you have rock that is not being used in an area where there is massive demand for rock it makes sense to consider redeveloping. I'm not talking about trad classics nor stuff on Chee Tor but there are plenty of routes that were climbed once by the first ascensionist, who had their moment of glory, but have barely been repeated but now we are expected treat said ascent as some sort of religious artefact. In many cases there is little of the original ascent that is worth protecting be it the ethics (probably not ground up, often involving fixed gear) or the finished product (shit, over grown route on dubious fixed gear). BTW I'm only talking about specific crap routes on limestone here, I think sea cliffs, mountain routes and grit have never been safer from the bolt and let's face it that's all anyone cares about, isn't it?After all, UK ethics seem to begin and end with the bolt when to my mind there are some things genuinely worth preserving like the Range West ground up ethic which seems to have gone for a burton without even a murmur of dissenting voices. Similarly, that cutting edge sea cliff routes are still being put up using pegs seems a bit more pernicious to me than giving some routes that no one cares about (other than on some abstract moral level) a new lease of life.
to my mind there are some things genuinely worth preserving like the Range West ground up ethic which seems to have gone for a burton without even a murmur of dissenting voices.
Yes indeed, I'm all for convenience, I hate long walk offs in tight rock shoes! If it's an Alpine route or a sea cliff, getting down (off the route or to the bottom of it) is part of the adventure. Whereas on UK inland crags getting down is just a nuisance
Probably worth a thread split though.
[To me the fundamental point of trad is moving through a found environment (whether entirely natural or a historical mix of quarrying etc) using my own skill and craft.
the Range West ground up ethic which seems to have gone for a burton without even a murmur of dissenting voices.
Some really interesting points made above, and I didn't mean to single you out Shark, I have had these feelings towards many climbers' attitudes towards retrobolting for some time its just you wrote them down at a time I saw them... Can I ask what made you come to this conclusion?
Not many are complaining except first ascentionists like me and Hydraulic who had our routes buggered about with and a few others of the era like Neil. Everyone else is voting with the their feet and repeating the routes glad to have a new playground. Perhaps it is the way to go.
Quote from: shark on June 11, 2014, 12:53:35 amNot many are complaining except first ascentionists like me and Hydraulic who had our routes buggered about with and a few others of the era like Neil. Everyone else is voting with the their feet and repeating the routes glad to have a new playground. Perhaps it is the way to go.There's also a lot who are voting with their feet by not going and doing the routes, and also those who simply don't know what has been happening.
There's also a lot who are voting with their feet by not going and doing...
Quote from: dave on June 11, 2014, 07:29:27 amThere's also a lot who are voting with their feet by not going and doing...Many people don't do many things, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily voting with their feet and making an active protest.
I generally don't 'cause a) I'm shit and don't want to scare or injure myself as most of the routes are too hard for me;
Quote from: ChrisC on June 11, 2014, 09:25:07 amQuote from: dave on June 11, 2014, 07:29:27 amThere's also a lot who are voting with their feet by not going and doing...Many people don't do many things, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily voting with their feet and making an active protest.I didn't say people not doing the routes, which is the vast majority if the population of the earth, are doing do deliberately as that would be absurd. However there are some people who will know about the routes but have no interest in climbing retrobolted trad routes, who unless they either feel motivated enough to moan online or chop the bolts, won't get heard in this debate.
There's plenty of opportunity to scare and/ or injure yourself on overgrown low-grade Peak Lime trad routes too.