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Hubble: Sean McColl Kneebars and pads (Read 58065 times)

Sloper

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We're in danger of missing the real issue here; that Sloper mistook Sean Myles for Jason Myres.

It's a fucking disgrace.

Guilty as charged.

petejh

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I'd say there's a real money-spinning opportunity for someone with solid seamstress skills, and a supply of sticky rubber and neoprene. Seriously - if anyone can knock out good quality, cheap, knee-pads it'd make a nice side-line to a climbing bum lifestyle, a bit like a quality re-sole service.

Stu - the 'better' argument - I agree in principle with that - but better is so subjective. I'm rubbish at jamming but I love laybacking/crimping my way around fist cracks. That to me is 'better'. To others it's lame. (ok, it is lame). I'd argue the concept of 'style' is more valid than the concept of 'better'. Both are nebulous though.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2014, 02:10:09 pm by petejh »

davej

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Is it the norm to use a knee pad on  mecca these days?? I remember mike collins telling that he had spotted a knee bar rest ( without pad) years ago when he was trying to make the second ascent.

Stu Littlefair

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Yes, a knee bar on Mecca is pretty much the norm.

Gav - out of interest does everyone agree this is the crux of Hubble? This move, and the next are pretty much the only two I can do...

Jaspersharpe

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Gav - out of interest does everyone agree this is the crux of Hubble?

Yes.

gme

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Stu- It was always talked about as the crux and was given 7b but i would agree that, with my little experience of the route, the move to get your feet round the roof and the last slap felt way harder than the under cut match. I couldn't do either but the undercut move felt doable.

Sloper

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Never one to be knowingly controversial, but is anyone else getting a sense of sour grapes from some of the commentators; in that had they known of the knee bar sequence they might have grabbed a very coveted repeat?

I seem to recall a controversey about of of John Dunne's routes (no really!) at Malham which was seriously downgraded after a new sequences was found (there might have been new holds too, but I can't recall with any precision) and the response generally was rather unpleasant, but of course that's nothing to do with the reputation of those involved is it?

As to what Ben Moon's response is, who are we to say, but were I in his positon I'd actually find it rather affirming that so few people can repeat his sequence.

davej

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Was ondra attempting it with a knee pad??

Bonjoy

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Where is this rule about 'friction' over 'mechanical', and what does it say about about hooking edges on knee-pads?
In the same place as the rule that says you dont get the tick for walking round the back or up a ladder. I think it's called The Collins Guide to the Bleedin Obvious.

As for hooking an edge, it's a none issue which is more likely to be of relevance on boots than kneepads.

petejh

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I've talked to a couple of boulderers recently who've said edges of knee-pads can be hooked for advantage. Do I really care - no, life's too short. But longer-term where does this lead?  It's the thin end of the edge!

The Collin's guide to the bleedin obvious also states in its preface that people will always try to find a short-cut.

Pantontino

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The stuff in the cave doesn't really bother me either, its pretty much a climbing wall anyway, but i just think it would be a great shame if what was perhaps the quintessential move on the quintessential  route of the 90s was eliminated by a kneebar, especially as it would appear to be only possible by using a piece of equipment not available at the time. I am not saying you can do it but to me it just wouldn't be the same.

I may be looking at it through rose tinted specs but that move and that route was the driving force behind a lot of peoples lives and has a special place in the minds of anyone climbing at the time. It would not be nice to see it reduced to something that a lot of people could do if they had strongish calves and a piece of rubber.

That move should only be available for the people who have the strongest fingers. Simple as that.

And Alex i gave up the crack some years ago and there is know way you will ever convince me that the crux of Hubble is a better, cooler move when it involves the use of knees. I was taught that you should never use them the very first day i climbed at scouts.

Dont confuse easier and more efficient with better.

Dismiss Parisella's as just a climbing wall if you like (as if Raven Tor was some grand crag and not just a similarly dusty, polished chunk of lime) but Pilgrimage is an historically important line too, perhaps not quite up there with Hubble, but certainly a very significant landmark in the history of Welsh climbing.

Apart from this unfortunate sneer I agree with you. Pilgrimage hasn't changed, but the way people feel about it has. The same would happen to Hubble if its difficulty could be reduced by the use of a rubber pad.


fatdoc

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2 penneth..

the " extra equipment " line of discussion. ( btw if you buy a pair of Brian lopes Troy lee designs leg armour for mountain biking and have a sheet of stealth..sew it on and that would b a great piece of kit).. I, Seb and Paul Reeve and a cast of thousands had the remains of poor knees with rags wrapped them over 16 years ago at the tor, down the dale etc.. They decreased the pain.. Iirc the chimes one if you are little like me was hideous without one.. So nothing new.

Yep it's a shame it's most likely not 7b.... Using a new sequence, like what others said, brad Pitt And Bens Maginot line ( aka La Plafond) all being notable grade changes with new sequences.

I'm out of the routes game, but I watch all these shiny vids, rubber knee pads are a progression of our rags. Like what others said, they are here to stay.

It's a damn shame the worlds first 9a may now not be so...  Particultary as GME said, it was an inspiring time... To say the least. But, again as others said... Evolution...

As in " it's not the strongest species that survives , but the most responsive to change" Charles Darwin.
 - might not be word for word that bit-

Summery: they are here to stay. Bit gutted about Hubble, time to move on.

Shame no seems to be able to do it at all, irregardless anyway!!



Johnny Brown

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Quote
It's a damn shame the worlds first 9a may now not be so

It was 8c+ until last year, get a grip!!!

Doylo

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Quote
It's a damn shame the worlds first 9a may now not be so

It was 8c+ until last year, get a grip!!!

 :lol:

kelvin

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Will Ondra come back with a kneepad? Or for him would that as good as admitting he couldn't manage an 8c+ that others have managed in the past?

I'd like to think that he won't but it's odds on he will. He already has better shoes anyway.

Anyways - who's next in line to try it in a haze of publicity? Dave Graham?

Doylo

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Dave Graham was the first to try a knee pad on it.

moose

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If climbing becomes an Olympic sport, a secret Chinese lab will dedicate itself to creating a climber with a very skinny, long-armed body but very fat knees.  He'll come over here and knee-bar his way up all our test pieces with nary a grimace.

PipeSmoke

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Anyways - who's next in line to try it in a haze of publicity? Dave Graham?

i for one, am always interested in seeing how elite climbers get on with hubble, one of the routes that fits all the hype. well in my opinion  ;D

Nibile

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I still haven't gone through the whole thread, so forgive me if I gatecrash.
I think that it's almost impossible to find a general consensus about the use of pads on routes that are classics established in a very different way. It's down to personal opinions and of course no one can be forced NOT to use kneepads and kneebars.
So, given that everyone is free to choose the preferred way of repeating a problem, if I were Moon I'd be happy that to repeat my route some strong guy had to use kneepads, because it means that he's not strong enough to do it without. But this is just me.
If McColl had done Hubble with pads, to me he would not have done it, but if asked, I'd say that his is a valid ascent. I don't know if I made myself clear.
I, personally, would never swap never doing Hubble for climbing Hubble with pads. But, again, this is just me.
If it's ok for McColl and Barrows, good for them.
Basically, each ascent belongs to the climber that does it. Each climber grades his ascent, to me, and not (necessarily) the route in itself, because each climber has a completely subjective point of view (his own ascent). When many subjective experiences opt for the same grade, here it comes consensus on a grade. But it's still based on a finite number of subjective experiences that, anyway, agree.
So, my opinion is that the route isn't ruined by a padded ascent. It's the single ascent that, in my personal opinion, is ruined by a padded ascent. But if it's fine for the climber, there's no problem for me. The route will still be there to be climbed without pads, if one likes.
So, a padded ascent that brings Hubble down to 8c, is not downgrading Hubble as a route, but only that single, personal and individual ascent of Hubble.


Clart

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To settle this we must await the return of the Ondrawad, god of sport climbing, who,  given time (more than the 40 mins where he looked very close) will repeat the route. When he lowers back to earth I prophesize that he will etch the grade and rules of the route onto tablets of rock so future challengers need question not the allowable ethics. Amen.

petejh

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Quote
It's a damn shame the worlds first 9a may now not be so
It was 8c+ until last year, get a grip!!!

JB, how about this for a tri-thread multi-website link-up:
Some see knee-padded ascents that lead to the downgrading of classic testpieces such as Hubble as a 'Mess of Pottage'; and keyhole cave had bloomin big iron stakes in it until a few years ago! It's all just about defining a style.

slackline

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Anyways - who's next in line to try it in a haze of publicity? Dave Graham?





Mr Varian...



Adam Ondra (2012)



davej

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Great pic of Mr Varian have a couple of these :strongbench: :strongbench: :strongbench: :strongbench:

gme

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The stuff in the cave doesn't really bother me either, its pretty much a climbing wall anyway, but i just think it would be a great shame if what was perhaps the quintessential move on the quintessential  route of the 90s was eliminated by a kneebar, especially as it would appear to be only possible by using a piece of equipment not available at the time. I am not saying you can do it but to me it just wouldn't be the same.

I may be looking at it through rose tinted specs but that move and that route was the driving force behind a lot of peoples lives and has a special place in the minds of anyone climbing at the time. It would not be nice to see it reduced to something that a lot of people could do if they had strongish calves and a piece of rubber.

That move should only be available for the people who have the strongest fingers. Simple as that.

And Alex i gave up the crack some years ago and there is know way you will ever convince me that the crux of Hubble is a better, cooler move when it involves the use of knees. I was taught that you should never use them the very first day i climbed at scouts.

Dont confuse easier and more efficient with better.

Dismiss Parisella's as just a climbing wall if you like (as if Raven Tor was some grand crag and not just a similarly dusty, polished chunk of lime) but Pilgrimage is an historically important line too, perhaps not quite up there with Hubble, but certainly a very significant landmark in the history of Welsh climbing.

Apart from this unfortunate sneer I agree with you. Pilgrimage hasn't changed, but the way people feel about it has. The same would happen to Hubble if its difficulty could be reduced by the use of a rubber pad.

Sorry Simon it didnt mean to be so dismissive. Pilgrimage is an important part of UK climbing history but not anywhere near that of Hubble on a world stage. Quality wise they are similar but historically they are vastly different.

Doylo

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Yes Pilgrimage is nationally significant and Hubble is globally significant.

 

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