[slackline]

Their choice but I'm allowed to say I think it's a shame. For Reasons Gavs just posted above.

Yes you are, but I don't understand why you and Gav think its a shame, as JB has written the rock is still there unchanged and the original inspiring challenge still exists if anyone wants to go and pit themselves against it.

Its not in anyway a detraction from Moon's effort or Smith doing the move static because you have the information that a different sequence/technique was used and can make a direct comparison, i.e. Moon and Smith were that bit stronger and capable of doing it without recourse to a kneebar. 

Why is that a shame?  Surely if anything its evidence that they were both top of the game at that time and that standard is still relevant and hard today.  Framed like this it seems like a positive thing rather than a negative "its ruined a legendary route" since its the climber that is legendary for having the vision to see the line and actually climb it, not the rock itself.

[davej]

So when Hubble is done with a knee bar it will no longer be the worlds first 9a?? A real shame!

[Doylo]

Because using equipment to bypass the iconic 7b crux on one of the Worlds most important and historic routes seems like a shame to me. I'm not saying I'm right I just thinks it's a shame, that is all. The fact that he didn't do it shows just how hard those final moves are too.

[Jaspersharpe]

The series is called "Reclimbing The Classics" so it would have been more than a bit rich if he had claimed to have done it but had actually missed out the crux.

As it is, he didn't do it anyway so it doesn't matter.

[abarro81]

I'm going to post on this thread once, and only once...

Yes you are, but I don't understand why you and Gav think its a shame, as JB has written the rock is still there unchanged

The only thing that's a shame, IMO, is this:

It has taken the shine off the problem for other contenders like Danny and Pete though

I genuinely do think it's a pity if me doing it with a newschool and morpho sequence/approach has detracted from someone else's experience with the problem. But I'm not going to change my climbing style to make other people happy. Pissing people off on the internet, on the other hand, is brilliant, and I can only hope to one day desecrate Hubble in the most disgusting way possible.

I dont give a shit about the one on mecca, i would have happily tried to use it myself if i had known about it, or any of the others that have changed problems[..] but this is Hubble FFS. Its not a great route, not a great line, not great rock on not a great crag but is series of moves that inspired a lot of people with one in particular that has now been ruined.

You're on crack. Also, who says it's not a better move with knees? The pocket hand swap on Pilgrimage is far cooler with my sequence than Ste Mac's shitty shuffly hand swap method, for example. Also, I bet it isn't an easy knee on Hubble, which makes it cooler.

Rules belong indoors.

+1. Or at least on something quite openly accepted as being absurd, a bit crap and utterly pointless - if still fun - like pinches wall.

[cowboyhat]

This is a crackin load of waffle for an unclimb.

When I don't do Hubble I'm going to combine the Mcoll and Simpson sequences.

Look strong down the wall in an edited video, rock up to the Tor with a film crew, get a photo using a knee pad, phone Ben to tell him I've done it then change my username on here RavenTor9a.

[Bonjoy]

Is it a damn shame if hubble can be made easier using a kneebar? Yes.
Would such a state of affairs diminish the route somewhat? I guess so.
Would it be kind of nice if everyone who went on Hubble never thought to try using a kneepad? Maybe.
Would this piss me off it I was Ben Moon? Yes. I'm always a bit annoyed when people find easier ways to climb things I've put up.
Is there anything you can sensibly do about it? No.
Should arbitrary rules be invented and observed on a route by route basis to avoid such disappointments? No.
Does it invalidate an ascent? No.
Is Dense's claim that kneepads shouldn't be used on older routes make sense because people didn't have kneepads back then? No. In part because it's too arbitrary and complex to make any sense or police in the long run, but mostly because climbers DID make and use kneepads well before commercial products existed.

You can't just make up crazy rules to presserve the simplicity of the historical record or the importance of past acheivements. By all means use split grades for with without, but don't pressume to tell people not to use bits of their body on climbs.
The arguments in play here are pretty much the same arguments that are used to attack people who use bouldering mats to highball climbs which once had big e numbers. It a classic tail wagging the dog scenario.

[petejh]

Slackers, I don't think saying someone 'discovered a new sequence' does it justice. The point about 'The Knee-bar Debate' is that strapping a rubber pad to a knee and using it for purchase where previously a knee-bar was either impossible or gave no real advantage isn't really 'discovering a new sequence' in the traditionally understood meaning of the phrase. Discovering a knee-bar and just using it, without having to strap on an extra bit of kit, is 'discovering a new sequence'. Discovering a potential knee-bar that doesn't confer any advantage unless you strap on an extra piece of equipment is something different again. A subtle but important difference (to some).
This is why its comparable to the heel-spur example. Why not wear heel-spurs in rock climbing? Heel-hooks exist on loads of routes, just as do knee-bars. Some heel-hooks are rubbish, but they'd be bomber with a little hook attached to your shoe - so why not attach a little hook? They'd make some pumpy routes a piece of piss and probably reduce the grade. How about all those juggy endurance romps - I suggest if you got the design right you could just bat hang from hooks all the way up them. Fish Eye 8a+ anyone, no more jetting off to Spain for the soft enduro 8c 

The answer why not is because people would think there's something dubious about it - it's too much of an advantage and takes something away from the challenge set by other, more skilled, climbers. The same argument applies here with rubber knee-pads but it's slightly less obvious becasue it's gaining extra friction rather than putting a hook over something.

There shouldn't be anything wrong with pointing this out and discussing it. Don't misunderstand me - as long as it's open and honest then strap little hooks to your the tops of your shoes to allow bomber toe hooks where none previously existed - I'd love it. And make clever designs that use little sawn-down fifi hooks strapped to your wrists to be able to get a shake-out 'using a new sequence' on little incut edges where previously there was only sustained climbing. If this becomes accepted then I'll be joining in with the extra equipment too. In the terminology being suggested it's only 'discovering a new sequence'.

(edit: Bonjoy I think climbers have always come to a consensus of what's generally considered fair game and what isn't and it's not inevitable that knee-pads will always be considered 'fair means', this is just another example that's still a bit up in the air.)

[Sloper]

Jeez, we've had this before. Ruined is ridiculous. It's still there, unchanged. What about no toehooking? No thumbs? Compulsory two-pounds of dreads? Rules belong indoors.

Abso fuckign lutely.  A knee pad reduces the pain of the knee bar and improves friction, but what about canvas trousers vs lycra, does a knee bar in canvas trousers 'invalidate' an ascent because the original route was climbed (with a knee bar) but the FA wearing lycra?

Abarro81, you're right, what you do has no relevance to other people's enjoyment, what a load of fucking nonsense this 'it's spoiled the route' is, Sean Myles ascent of BP was no less impressive because short franchie found a better technique and I've lost count of the times I've found/shown a different way of doing a problem and never have I felt that the problem has changed; I've changed it has not.

What would we say if my 6'8" mate (with a +3 ape index) yarded past the moves, that it was only 7c+ what bollocks, we'd say 'well he lanked that'!

Climbs are graded for the easiest sequence, if a new sequence is found the route gets down graded.  Missing all the holds out and using a shit sequence on an E2 doesn't make it E9.

[mr__j5]

.. and this is one of the things that makes the whole discussion confused.

Using a knee-bar = finding some technique.
Doing a padded knee-bar = using equipment that some people disagree with.

People talk about the fact that knee bars shouldn't be allowed for a certain tick, when I really hope that they are talking about using a knee-pad to do the knee-bar shouldn't be allowed.

[petejh]

(Sloper) See above - 'easiest sequence' is misleading. What you should say is 'easiest sequence utilysing a piece of equipment, without which the sequence is not possible or gives no advantage'.

[petejh]

What would we say if my 6'8" mate (with a +3 ape index) yarded past the moves, that it was only 7c+ what bollocks, we'd say 'well he lanked that'!

His power to weight would have to be that of a Caterham Super 7 to do it on Hubble.

[Bonjoy]

This is why its comparable to the heel-spur example. Why not wear heel-spurs in rock climbing? Heel-hooks exist on loads of routes, just as do knee-bars. Some heel-hooks are rubbish, but they'd be bomber with a little hook attached to your shoe - so why not attach a little hook? They'd make some pumpy routes a piece of piss and probably reduce the grade. How about all those juggy endurance romps - I suggest if you got the design right you could just bat hang from hooks all the way up them.

The crucial difference is that kneepads confer a frictional advantage, spurs provide a mechanical one. It's as simple as that, one is leggit one isn't. I.e. kneepads are analagous to boots - not spurs or ice axes or sky hooks. Very simple rule.

[PipeSmoke]

Surely as long as your honest with it, then it doesn't matter? If in your mind it doesn't go down as a full ascent then that's fine, and im sure any change in grade using a  knee pad would be noted.

You can't police what someone wants to strap to their knee....

Personally i think if it is an easier method it would detract slightly, but he didn't do it so it can't be that much easier and as more and more people come to try this test piece variations in beta will be tried and found, that is just how it goes. If anything him using a knee pad and still failing does the route some more justice. The modern techniques are still not enough sometimes!

[petejh]

Well, we police everything in climbing really - but I wouldn't describe it in those terms. Open and honest is the crucial thing as you say, and people can then form their own opinions.

Where is this rule about 'friction' over 'mechanical', and what does it say about about hooking edges on knee-pads?

[PipeSmoke]

I do think, if I sent it with a knee pad, I'd obviously be over  the moon, then in  the back of  mind i'd be wanting to send it without one just to know I could

[Doylo]

Abarro81, you're right, what you do has no relevance to other people's enjoyment, what a load of fucking nonsense this 'it's spoiled the route' is,

Its unfortunate but climbing a hard testpiece in a style like this can affect someone else's motivation. Danny on Pilgrimage: "proper took the shine off it for me, used to be a life tick but i'm not arsed anymore". Barrows used some extra rubber and a different approach, which was impressive in a different way but unfortunately it has affected the aura and challenge of the climb for those who have been trying it for years. Like i say unfortunate, i don't begrudge Barrows climbing it. Still a meaty effort.

[Fiend]

Its unfortunate but climbing a hard testpiece in a style like this can affect someone else's motivation. Danny on Pilgrimage: "proper took the shine off it for me, used to be a life tick but i'm not arsed anymore".

What on Earth was his motivation if someone doing it in different style / with different equipment could possibly influence that motivation??? The rock hadn't changed, Danny's climbing of it presumably hadn't changed??



I'm sure there's some sort of warning here about putting climbs / climbers / grades on a pedestal.

[dave]

We're in danger of missing the real issue here; that Sloper mistook Sean Myles for Jason Myres.

It's a fucking disgrace.

[Fiend]

This is a crackin load of waffle for an unclimb.

Love it 

It is some good waffle though.

Why didn't Ben think to strap a tube support with a load of Boreal re-soles glued on onto his leg at the time?? Isn't a purchased kneepad just neatening up something that could have been available for many years??

[Fiend]

Jason Myers? I thought it was Jasper Sharpe who dynoed Deliverance?? Hmmm I should have known there was something suspicious about that 

That fact Sloper managed to both post on a climbing-related thread AND make an ounce of sense is something to be grateful for, regardless.

[Stu Littlefair]

Abarro81, you're right, what you do has no relevance to other people's enjoyment, what a load of fucking nonsense this 'it's spoiled the route' is,

Its unfortunate but climbing a hard testpiece in a style like this can affect someone else's motivation. Danny on Pilgrimage: "proper took the shine off it for me, used to be a life tick but i'm not arsed anymore". Barrows used some extra rubber and a different approach, which was impressive in a different way but unfortunately it has affected the aura and challenge of the climb for those who have been trying it for years. Like i say unfortunate, i don't begrudge Barrows climbing it. Still a meaty effort.

I can understand people finding new beta on a problem changing your view of said problem, and even taking the shine off. Especially if the beta is morpho and you can't use it. I feel similarly about the knee bar on trigger cut. It's put me right off trying directors cut. Seems a silly reason to try and stop people using better beta in the first place though. And surely the bigger issue with Barrow's ascent is that he used an entirely different sequence, which is morpho, to leave the junction with Lou Ferrino? Doing the undercut match is the only way for stumps and makes a much bigger difference than some knee scums here and there.

I get genuinely puzzled whenever this comes up. At least Dense knows his position is non-sensical and self-contradictory.

Pete - I think you're right in principle about kneepads being a grey area as a technology that makes things easier. I think I've said this before but the acid test as to whether such tech gets accepted in the long run is whether they make climbing better. Heel spurs just gave you a rest everywhere and make mixed climbing too easy. Kneepads make cool sequences less unpleasant, and can't be used everywhere. Kneepads make climbing better, so I'd get used to them...

[Doylo]

Exactly Stu it can have a knock on effect for others. You can't and shouldn't stop people using new beta though, it's just the way it is.  I don't think using rubber in your knee is cheating or wrong it's just a shame when classic hard testpieces and sequences are made miles easier and the challenge is altered.  Danny's still got the Gaskins Pill Box problem to aim for and i don't think anyone will ever kneebar that!

[Doylo]

. And surely the bigger issue with Barrow's ascent is that he used an entirely different sequence, which is morpho, to leave the junction with Lou Ferrino? Doing the undercut match is the only way for stumps and makes a much bigger difference than some knee scums here and there.

Yes the undercut match from the start is sick. Barrows walked a knee in, extremely morpho!

[gme]

I am really not saying you cant use knee pads if you want to, people can do what they want. And i repeat i have nothing against kneepads they have been used for years despite what people thing, i can remember them being used on chimes, powerplant roofwarrior etc donkeys ago. Great piece of kit and i am sure i will be strapping one on at the first opportunity.

The stuff in the cave doesn't really bother me either, its pretty much a climbing wall anyway, but i just think it would be a great shame if what was perhaps the quintessential move on the quintessential  route of the 90s was eliminated by a kneebar, especially as it would appear to be only possible by using a piece of equipment not available at the time. I am not saying you can do it but to me it just wouldn't be the same.

I may be looking at it through rose tinted specs but that move and that route was the driving force behind a lot of peoples lives and has a special place in the minds of anyone climbing at the time. It would not be nice to see it reduced to something that a lot of people could do if they had strongish calves and a piece of rubber.

That move should only be available for the people who have the strongest fingers. Simple as that.

And Alex i gave up the crack some years ago and there is know way you will ever convince me that the crux of Hubble is a better, cooler move when it involves the use of knees. I was taught that you should never use them the very first day i climbed at scouts.

Dont confuse easier and more efficient with better.