[psychomansam]

Rather than shipping our lesser comrades off to siberia for re-education as you suggest, perhaps we should support them from within their communities? Pre-Thatcher, when council estate didn't = destitution and lack of jobs, these were pleasant enough places to be. Perhaps we should focus on supporting real communities? Although I suppose you support the the witch (ding dong) and think communities are as mythical as society?

You could think of it as SureStart+ or SureCarryOn. The current government is a big fan of such egalitarian programs I believe. (trying not to choke on my own vomit)

[slackline]

Regardless if whether it's right or wrong it's good that Picketty has been open with his data & analysis .

And the data will soon be even more easily accessible after its extracted from the cumbersome Excel spreadsheets (and its dead simple to output it from R using write.csv()) 

Looks like Piketty might have used a few devious tricks though such as inconsistent scales.

[Sloper]

Rather interesting.

My current book is 'why nations fail' (which I can thoroughly recommend) and one of the very interesting points in discussion is the way in which the Dutch East India Co acted in the far east and the devastating economic consequences; some of the same are likely to be responsible for the decline in economic output while probably actually reducing inequality.

[Sloper]

Part of the problem we have is the level of debate is so woeful; for example

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/jun/30/couple-two-children-earn-basic-needs

I did their 'test' and it appears that I should pay c. 85 per week in rent (about 1/3 of what we pay) but also £77 per week in 'cultural activities' about x10 the amount I spend and £32 per week on clothes WTF? I buy x2 suits a year, usually in the Jaeger sale for £250 (for both) throw in the odd shirt etc and I doubt that I get to £10 per week.

[Jaspersharpe]

Yes but it also says £7 per week on alcohol.

It's nonsense obviously but taken as a whole I reckon the figures are probably about right for what is necessary to not feel totally on your arse, with one kid let alone two.

[IanP]

Part of the problem we have is the level of debate is so woeful; for example

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/jun/30/couple-two-children-earn-basic-needs

I did their 'test' and it appears that I should pay c. 85 per week in rent (about 1/3 of what we pay) but also £77 per week in 'cultural activities' about x10 the amount I spend

So you spend £400 per year on social and cultural activities which includes broadband internet, holidays, sporting and social activities (climbing wall anyone), Christmas and birthday gifts, additional food for social occasions (eg Christmas) etc etc?

Agree that the level of debate can be very poor at times

[Sloper]

Part of the problem we have is the level of debate is so woeful; for example

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/jun/30/couple-two-children-earn-basic-needs

I did their 'test' and it appears that I should pay c. 85 per week in rent (about 1/3 of what we pay) but also £77 per week in 'cultural activities' about x10 the amount I spend

So you spend £400 per year on social and cultural activities which includes broadband internet, holidays, sporting and social activities (climbing wall anyone), Christmas and birthday gifts, additional food for social occasions (eg Christmas) etc etc?

Agree that the level of debate can be very poor at times

Fair point, but £77 per week seems to be well OTT being the equivalent of c.£6000 per year pre tax earnings for a basic rate tax payer.

As for the £7 per week on alcohol. . . Alderson has just gone into shock.

[Stubbs]

The "losers" have been the group in the 75-90 percentile area, part of which is the developed world middle class. So, given that most people are myopically focused on their own country/ peer group, we have the paradoxical situation of political frustration within developed countries rising in response to a perceived inequality issue, whilst on a global basis the recent trend has actually been healthy.

Is it not okay to myopically focus on your country and peer group when they are bucking th global trend?!

[Russell_B]

Bit of a diversion from the main theme here but thought some may be interested to entertain/discuss a possible theory for the perpetuation of Empire politics or 'us' and 'them' (to put it bluntly).  I think it feeds into the debate albeit obtusely.   

Boarding Schools and Politics.
http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2014/07/01/did-boarding-schools-cripple-our-cabinet

From the age of 7/8 David Cameron, George Osborne and Nick Clegg (to name but a few) have grown up in isolated institutions, away from family that set them on a trajectory to the top - to effectively rule 'the Empire' as their forbearers did. Fine you may say, the rich will always be rich but fast forward to modern times when our age of connectedness allows 'survivors' (recent extension of abuse scandal into private schools) to speak to one another more freely and for the 'stiff upper lip' to be exposed some more and your get Boarding School Syndrome (as published in 2013).  Tantamount to neglect, emotional crippling, based on Attachment Theory. Neuroscience is reinforcing the idea that access to emotions are essential for decision making but otherwise direct studies are lacking (if at all ethically possible). 

Many people have an anecdote or two of having encountered an ex-boarder.  I admit personal interest having been through the system myself in the 90s.  Wouldn't wish it on my kids. 

Once essentially scholarly orphanages appropriated by the ruling classes I think they're outdated and don't produce 'good' leaders well suited to modern politics.  I also think there's scope for developing residential sixth form colleges in their place - developing all the skills the pro-boarding lobby rightly state at a more appropriate age.

Would be interested to hear all thoughts on the matter.

[Sloper]

There is a valid discussion to be had about entrenching privledge in eduaction and the consequences but I think that the perjorative references (I'm not suggesting you're making these references but they are often trotted out as a tired old trope) to 'Empire' politics and 'boarding school syndrome' aren't helpful within that discussion.

[Russell_B]

Fair point.  I was being lazy calling on that old adage.  Tabloid journalism.  Times have changed across the board (excuse the pun).  Lots of spurious speculation could be made on the point, e.g. Cameron's relationship with Europe compared to say John Major's, but it's all just that, speculative.  Churchill as a great war-time leader, less good peace-time leader another one.  Stopping now...

I don't think our leaders need to have lived like 'us' but it does help if they have a good sense of self-awareness that this theory (Boarding School Syndrome) suggests is lacking in all/a lot/some/few of them

[Oldmanmatt]

There is a valid discussion to be had about entrenching privledge in eduaction and the consequences but I think that the perjorative references (I'm not suggesting you're making these references but they are often trotted out as a tired old trope) to 'Empire' politics and 'boarding school syndrome' aren't helpful within that discussion.

I'm not sure they are so tired, or even clichéd. It seems to be a very pertinent observation.
We know well that an Orphanage/care home upbringing can have detrimental effects on Adult behavior. So why should boarding school not?

And the Empire attitude seems to sum up much of the current Cabinet. I find it hard to believe that even Slopers could support the current shower of chinless-wonders?

[a dense loner]

"I don't think our leaders need to have lived like us"? Which "us" are you referring to? I grew up on a shit council estate.

[Sloper]

There is a valid discussion to be had about entrenching privledge in eduaction and the consequences but I think that the perjorative references (I'm not suggesting you're making these references but they are often trotted out as a tired old trope) to 'Empire' politics and 'boarding school syndrome' aren't helpful within that discussion.

I'm not sure they are so tired, or even clichéd. It seems to be a very pertinent observation.
We know well that an Orphanage/care home upbringing can have detrimental effects on Adult behavior. So why should boarding school not?

And the Empire attitude seems to sum up much of the current Cabinet. I find it hard to believe that even Slopers could support the current shower of chinless-wonders?

Sadly you're wrong, there's nary a criticism of Cameron without reference to the fact that he went to Eton or that he's 'posh' etc which is a knackered old cliche with the allusion that as a consequence he's out of touch and therefore less well placed to govern.

I wonder how many people realise that the owner of a well known outdoor shop was at Eton or bring up the schooling of other well known climbers (particularly to their face)?

As for supporting Cameron, he's the best prime minister that we've got, but I ould much rather have had David Davis or William Bloody Hauge.  Deciding who is dislike more the members of the cabinet or shadow cabinet is a great game but not good for my blood pressue.  Boy George however is playing a blinder, let's hope he moves one door down in early 2016.

[petejh]

Yeah he'd make a great chief whip.

[Oldmanmatt]

Seriously, Sloper, I know Hauge .

I worked for Ashcroft and was their Exped guide in Greenland, during Hauges honeymoon with Ffion.

I also took him Jet skiing in the Growlers and Ffion Ice Diving. Spent 6 weeks with them on Ashcroft's Yacht "Lady M".

I promise you, he's an Ass and a puppet, IMHO.

Ffion was ace. Fearless, smart and quick.

I'd vote for her.

[Russell_B]

"I don't think our leaders need to have lived like us"? Which "us" are you referring to? I grew up on a shit council estate.

Good spot. On the one hand I had the average voter in mind. Perhaps someone not in the 1% of the population who had this start... Such as myself...  On the other, I probably had it as everyone that lived outside the school walls who I'd viewed with curosity, distain and envy.  I'm sure the feelings were mutual on the other side. 

[Sloper]

Seriously, Sloper, I know Hauge .

I worked for Ashcroft and was their Exped guide in Greenland, during Hauges honeymoon with Ffion.

I also took him Jet skiing in the Growlers and Ffion Ice Diving. Spent 6 weeks with them on Ashcroft's Yacht "Lady M".

I promise you, he's an Ass and a puppet, IMHO.

Ffion was ace. Fearless, smart and quick.

I'd vote for her.

Fair enough, I've only met him a couple of times and was rather impressed, but 6 weeks gives you a significant opportunity to gauge a character.

[petejh]

Get you two clangers. I'd like to know how many times Dense has met Hague (or Ffion).

[Sloper]

What hanging off the mono's on a beastmaker? Loads of times I'm sure.

[Oldmanmatt]

Get you two clangers. I'd like to know how many times Dense has met Hague (or Ffion).

Common Pete, you were never tempted by Close Protection when you came outside?

[petejh]

How'd you know I didn't?


But seriously, I was glad to be away from the scene.

[a dense loner]

And I happen to know hague prefers back 3

[slackline]

Perhaps someone not in the 1% of the population who had this start...

Thats a huge amount of variation in life-style/quality-of-life to experience.

[jwi]

Tho-mas himself:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2014/07/thomas-piketty-history-money

Great video