[Muenchener]

I'm relatively new to proper sport climbing in the sense of deliberately trying things I don't expect to onsight. I'm enjoying myself, and having some successes, but I seem to be able to get alarmingly little done in a day. I can manage two or three warm-up routes, a maximum of four or five goes on things anywhere near my limit, and that's pretty much it for the day (no matter how many recovery cakes I eat at Oma Eichler's). And when I get out for a full weekend, I'm still very much feeling the effects of Saturday on Sunday.

I'm mostly climbing in the Frankenjura, so we're talking powered out (ancap?) more than burning lactate pump if that's relevant.

Should I change my tactics: project Saturday, mileage Sunday? Is there some training I could do to improve matters? Or should I just accept that this is normal, relax and enjoy the cakes?

[Davo]

Sounds pretty normal for me

[chris j]

That's pretty good going by my standards. One my current project (the Lynch at Ansteys) I can manage 2 warm ups and then three meaningful goes before I start fading fast. But that is pushing a long way above my normal grades and has improved from when I started when I generally got 2 1/2 goes and then had to ask a mate to get the clips back as I was utterly wiped out...

After a day on that I'm normally still feeling it two or three days after and there would be no prospect of doing anything on the next day.

[SA Chris]

Yup, although what little projecting I've done I've only warmed up doing a route i know once on lead and once on toprope before redpoint blasts. But that was when I was young and fit, not sure what I would need to do now.

[Stu Littlefair]

Definitely normal. As time goes on you'll get to the point where you'll be able to climb hard Saturday and Sunday but the odds are you still won't be getting more than 5 good goes on a project in one day.

If anything you could cut down on the warm ups. For a power endurance type route I'll do one warm up and then one go up the route bolt-to-bolt.

[Fultonius]

When you say "5 good goes" are you just throwing yourself at it, trying to redpoint every go, or have you broken it down to sections and tried different moves, working out rest points etc?

Whenever I've been properly working stuff I would spend the first few sessions figuring it all out and not really even trying long links. Usually 3 or 4 "times up on the rope" would have me pretty spent. Each time up there might be 20 minutes though, trying moves, resting, links etc.

The next stage would be the links. Warm up then try and get as far as you can. Rest plenty, maybe lower down a bit f you fluffed a certain move - figure out a better way or whatever, then maybe link to the top (or to the next fall, depending on how hard it is).

The early sessions might take hours if I'm there with someone else working them. Later on, when it's closer to getting the route bagged the sessions were often very short. Warm up - good redpoint (fail), good redpoint (fail), bad redpoint(fail) go home. Those sessions wouldn't take so much out me, because you're only on the rock for 10 - 15 minutes and you have it all wired.

[webbo]

How much harder are your projects than your on sighting grade.

[Muenchener]

How much harder are your projects than your on sighting grade.

Three grades: 6c+ versus 6b.

But I find pretty much the same applies when I'm trying onsights at my limit; I get more pumped than powered out on those because I'm hanging in there longer, or trying to.

[webbo]

Can you do all the moves first time on the dog.

[Muenchener]

Generally second or third.

I'm not really into serious projecting - too many places to go and see and routes to try. My three 6c+ redpoints so far went in three, five and three goes.

[moose]

I agree that Muench' sounds pretty normal by my admittedly sloth-esque  standards. 

If I am on-sighting or doing routes that might take only 2 or 3 tries, I'll have maybe 6 "goes" in a day.  When working near my RP limit - either long sessions of repeatedly working hard moves, or actually on RP, I might only have 3-4 "goes" and generally go home more fatigued than from any day of on-sighting.   No matter how desperately I might end up clinging-on during on-sights, working something at or beyond my limits takes a far greater toll.  To have a chance of bagging a proper RP project I need at least an hours rest between tries (more like two if it's the third or fourth go). 

As a result, to accommodate a decent session, I've pretty much given up on prolonged, structured warm-ups.  Maybe two quick laps up a familiar route (Consenting if at Malham).  More generally bolt-to-bolting to get my clips in my project - pulling on draws and stick-clipping past anything tweaky.

[webbo]

Generally second or third.

I'm not really into serious projecting - too many places to go and see and routes to try. My three 6c+ redpoints so far went in three, five and three goes.

Then are you lacking in the power/ bouldering for your projected grade. Do you need to spend more time bouldering to get the power.

[SEDur]

If you are dead keen to get on the training energy systems thing, it will be worth looking at barrows 'training energy systems' pdf (link in the wiki).

If your local wall has a figure-of-8 circuit board, you could always put away 30mins a session to top end PE but trying to work and then lap the next hardest thing that you can't do yet. I expect that would be in the order of 7a/+ maybe?

If there is a long(ish), powerful and slightly gymnastic bouldering traverse (a la weedkiller) at a crag near to you, it may be worth trying to work on that on the evenings after work. It did wonders for me.

[Muenchener]

Thanks all for the constructive feedback.

If your local wall has a figure-of-8 circuit board, you could always put away 30mins a session to top end PE but trying to work and then lap the next hardest thing that you can't do yet. I expect that would be in the order of 7a/+ maybe?

Did quite a bit of that in the autumn but have been doing other things lately.

If there is a long(ish), powerful and slightly gymnastic bouldering traverse (a la weedkiller) at a crag near to you, it may be worth trying to work on that on the evenings after work. It did wonders for me.

There are, sadly, no crags near me. That's the drawback of Munich compared to places like Manchester or Sheffield. Frankenjura or Dolomites for a weekend is great, but there's no real rock accessible for a quick evening after work. Nearest is Kochel - 45 minutes drive without traffic but much more in the rush hour.

[ghisino]

seems normal to me, and in this regard, consider yourself lucky to project things in FJ.

on longer pumpfests you might go down to 3 or even 2 good burns a day (the worse being those really steady climbs that keep coming at you for 30-40 moves with no real rests...imho at least)


very general training knowledge suggests me that the only thing that might give you a couple more good tries each day (other than a good sports doc ) is a very good general fitness base.
If you have an "off" season, try to spend 1 or 2 months bulking up the biggest possible volumeXintensity product of general, loosely climbing-related work, and some cardio...anything involving your upper body really. weights, pullups, TRX, swissball, bodyweight exercises, fighting sports, swimming, rowing/kayaking/paddling (i remember a very enjoyable river trip in the jura! so many castors...)

[Muenchener]

rowing/kayaking/paddling (i remember a very enjoyable river trip in the jura! so many castors...)

Yep, I generally try to fit in a family canoeing weekend on the Pegnitz some time in the summer when it's too hot for climbing.