[miso soup]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/which-british-highstreet-shops-do-not-pay-their-garment-workers-a-living-wage-9223733.html

Article in the Independent reporting that The North Face, among other high street clothing retailers, pay the people making the clothes a fraction of their local living wage.

[krymson]

I'm shocked, SHOCKED that a huge American corporation would do such a thing. 

Did a quick google and came across this: http://rankabrand.org/sportswear-sports-shoes/The+North+Face

Ironically Nike and Puma are now getting some of the better grades.

[Danny]

That ranking website is interesting, pity there isn't more info on the outdoor brands at the moment. I wonder who are the best and worst these days, particularly since most of the UK cottage industry type brands went East.

In therms of environmental and social ethics who tops the pile for: shoes, pads, hardware, clothing? I reckon a lot of the American brands will be doing much better than the European ones, or maybe that's just good marketing on their part. 

[SA Chris]

Or good "fact interpretation"?

[SA Chris]

Looks like there are two seperate rankings, one for outdoor clothes only and one fore outdoor clothes and shoes

http://rankabrand.org/sportswear-sports-shoes

http://rankabrand.org/sustainable-outdoor-clothing

Given all their publicity you would think Patagonia would be top, but Deuter are above them.

[nic mullin]

WRT living wage, according to the rate a brand outdoor clothing link in Chris's post, of the brands listed, only Deuter, Vaude, Regatta and Fjallraven go on the record and commit to paying a living wage (though almost all commit to paying minimum wage). The main area where Patagonia lose points is in workers' rights.

[tim palmer]

Ironically Nike and Puma are now getting some of the better grades.

Puma are german

[Danny]

Ironically Nike and Puma are now getting some of the better grades.

Puma are german

Nike, Gap and all the usual high street suspects got a good rinsing a while back, particularly in the likes of Naomi Klein's book No Logo. As a result, many have cleaned up their act. No surprise that smaller outdoor brands have ducked this bullet to date, and any decent ethics are purely opt in on their part, rather than a result of consumer pressure. 

[Stubbs]

The rankings on that page seem to be down to what information the companies have on the interweb more than anything else.

[a dense loner]

WRT living wage, according to the rate a brand outdoor clothing link in Chris's post, of the brands listed, only Deuter, Vaude, Regatta and Fjallraven go on the record and commit to paying a living wage (though almost all commit to paying minimum wage). The main area where Patagonia lose points is in workers' rights.

just to throw something into the mix, i've been scratching around in the great outdoors for 30 yrs. i've always thought vaude and regatta were shit, wouldn't have their stuff given to me and i haven't heard of the other two. patagonia stuff is superb. take from this what you will

[nic mullin]

i've always thought vaude and regatta were shit, wouldn't have their stuff given to me and i haven't heard of the other two. patagonia stuff is superb.

I agree, and I'll admit to having never made a purchase of outdoor gear or clothing based on any measure of sustainability/ethical trading. I'd never really thought of doing so, even though I do make choices about buying things like tea and coffee based on whether it has been ethically sourced. Arguably, given that a lot more people buy tea and coffee than outdoor gear, it would make more of a difference if I paid attention to the ethical practices of the companies that make the gear I buy, because I'm a bigger percentage of the gear market than the tea and coffee one. 

I thought it was interesting that even companies like Patagonia, who aside from making good gear, also market their brand as being sustainable and trading ethically, are apparently not as ethical as they could be. In particular, they seem to be doing very well on environmental factors, but pay less attention to workers' rights than some others.

[cuboard]

We'll known climbing brand in uk recently expanding to China sweat shops to manufacture their product ........ Morals none

[Moo]

When I worked in a well reputed outdoor shop I always thought it was bollocks that patagonia marketed themselves as being super green and friendly. Every year they'd massivley over produce their products for that season and end up with a huge clearance list (hence you used to see alot of patagonia sales kicking about).

I'm not sure if they are any better now but they certainly weren't the best. I think any green claims they made were probably offset by the the amount of flyers they had printed telling everyone how green they were.

Also their rep was a twat, maybe that's changed now as well.

[erm, sam]

We'll known climbing brand in uk recently expanding to China sweat shops to manufacture their product ........ Morals none

How much stuff do you buy that is made in the UK vs made in China, Vietnam, Burma, Indonesia, Bangladesh, India etc?

[duncan]

The North Face started out in San Francisco (where else?) as a highly credible outfit making specialist gear such as the first lightweight geodesic dome tents. They expanded steadily but developed financial troubles by the end of the 1990s complete - allegedly - with Enron-style share pumping. In 2000 they were taken over by VF corporation, the clothing behemoth behind Vans, Lee, Wrangler and Timberland amongst others, and world domination was assured.

They are no different to any other large clothing brand and we shouldn't expect them to behave differently.

[Oldmanmatt]

Hmmm... Chinese sweat shops?

Yes, they are.

But many thousands of Chinese migrate from the utter poverty of peasant/subsistence farming to a "better life" in those sweatshops.
Hardly a life on a bed of roses, true, but not to be judged against our spoilt existence.

The move East of consumer goods manufacture, has brought wealth and prosperity to much of Asia; undreamed of a generation ago.
We have a very middle class/gentleman farmer/hippy small holder view of subsistence farming (ie River Cottage et al), which bares little resemblance to the unending toil and drudgery faced by the rural populations of those nations that make our shoes.
I remember a long conversation with a Filipino carpentry Forman I worked with for 8+ years (who was very well paid (~$1750 per month)) in Dubai; where he explained it quite clearly and evocatively. Including the deaths of two infant daughters and a teenage son.
He retired in 2007. At which point he owned most of the island he was born on and had two sons at university in Australia.

The situation is not perfect, it is not "right", but it is.
And, more importantly, the labour market in the East is changing. China in particular is seeing a rise in wages as demand for workers increase faster than the supply. Which in turn increases the demand for the farmers output and raises their income, and so on.

It would be naive of us to think the world could overnight jump to Western standards. Even if poverty didn't exist here, which it does. How many people here earn less than a "living" wage?

Let them have their slice of the pie.     

[tomtom]

So which UK outdoor clothing co's make their stuff in the UK?

AFAIK Montane is the only one... (and I may be wrong)

Any more for any more?

[north_country_boy]

So which UK outdoor clothing co's make their stuff in the UK?

AFAIK Montane is the only one... (and I may be wrong)

Any more for any more?

Montane  website: "Montane® have all our products produced in 5 factories across Europe and Asia with high quality, experienced manufacturer partners. We have one quality standard and it applies to all of our products regardless of location of manufacture. We value long term business relationships where we can get to know a manufacturer and its employees. This ensures they understand our high quality standards and we have a greater understanding of their strengths.

Every manufacturing facility is selected for its technical ability and social responsibility practices. Each facility is regularly visited, monitored and reported on by the product team to ensure a safe and fair working environment for their employees. In order to make our position clear to our manufacturers we apply a Code of Conduct that places demands on them, and acceptance of these demands is a pre-condition for becoming a Montane® manufacturer. The code covers such issues as child labour, terms of employment, health & safety, the working environment and the prevention of cruelty to animals."

[Dave Westlake]

When I worked in a well reputed outdoor shop I always thought it was bollocks that patagonia marketed themselves as being super green and friendly. Every year they'd massivley over produce their products for that season and end up with a huge clearance list (hence you used to see alot of patagonia sales kicking about).

I'm not sure if they are any better now but they certainly weren't the best. I think any green claims they made were probably offset by the the amount of flyers they had printed telling everyone how green they were.

Also their rep was a twat, maybe that's changed now as well.

I used to work with Moo and couldn't agree more. They also seemed to package their stuff with far more plastic than seemed necessary. Their green thing was utter crap as far as I was concerned. This was about 8 yrs ago mind...

[nic mullin]

So which UK outdoor clothing co's make their stuff in the UK?

AFAIK Montane is the only one... (and I may be wrong)

Any more for any more?

PHD (started and still owned by one of the founders of ME, who I seem to recall reading was also approached by the guys who started TNF, and turned them down to do his own thing) and Aiguille both say all handmade in the UK. I seem to recall the guy from POD who posts on here mentioning that they might be moving backpack production back to the UK too.

I assume that these companies don't make their own buckles, zips, fabric etc., so the practices of the companies that make these are also a factor.

[SA Chris]

I agree, and I'll admit to having never made a purchase of outdoor gear or clothing based on any measure of sustainability/ethical trading. I'd never really thought of doing so, even though I do make choices about buying things like tea and coffee based on whether it has been ethically sourced. Arguably, given that a lot more people buy tea and coffee than outdoor gear, it would make more of a difference if I paid attention to the ethical practices of the companies that make the gear I buy, because I'm a bigger percentage of the gear market than the tea and coffee one. 

Presumably this was partially because you didn't have this available knowledge beforehand? Now that you do, do you think, do you think it will influence your buying decisions? Maybe not a key influence, but at least a factor?

I'm surprised some people haven't heard of Deuter.

[tomtom]

So which UK outdoor clothing co's make their stuff in the UK?

AFAIK Montane is the only one... (and I may be wrong)

Any more for any more?

Montane  website: "Montane® have all our products produced in 5 factories across Europe and Asia with high quality, experienced manufacturer partners. We have one quality standard and it applies to all of our products regardless of location of manufacture. We value long term business relationships where we can get to know a manufacturer and its employees. This ensures they understand our high quality standards and we have a greater understanding of their strengths.

Every manufacturing facility is selected for its technical ability and social responsibility practices. Each facility is regularly visited, monitored and reported on by the product team to ensure a safe and fair working environment for their employees. In order to make our position clear to our manufacturers we apply a Code of Conduct that places demands on them, and acceptance of these demands is a pre-condition for becoming a Montane® manufacturer. The code covers such issues as child labour, terms of employment, health & safety, the working environment and the prevention of cruelty to animals."

oops - how wrong was I!

[Danny]

I was working in Joe Browns at the time Rab moved their production out East, at one point we had pre and post move stock on the shelves and the difference in build quality was obvious, with the new stuff being pap. That said, believe they ironed these teething issues out in the long run. It would be good to get a handle on which outdoor brands have the best ethical standards. Such knowledge would certainly influence my buying decisions. 

[a dense loner]

would it? what kind of things would a company have to write to influence you? then would they have to tell you how this compares to the other brands ethics for the same product type?

i bought some prana hemp trousers, not because i read the endless blurb pr bullshit which i don't believe for one minute, because i liked the feel of them running through my fingers. i don't think if you see a nice TNF jacket you'll stop to think how it was made. i think you'll think thats cheap or on sale, or thats nicer or more apt, than jacket x in the same price range so i'll shell out on that. obviously there's no need to reply to this if you're slackers or SA chris. I'm talking clothing here not hardware

[Zods Beard]

 because i liked the feel of them running through my fingers

Genius. Is this how you test your conditioner is working too?