[danm]

I'm opening this thread to generate a discussion about re-equiping Peak Limestone, with the aim of potentially getting more people involved.

A few observations:

The Peak Bolt Fund has done fairly well with fundraising, and has had some support from the BMC. In general, bolts, drills and equipment are available for re-equiping.

Compared to other areas, and especially considering the density of climbers locally, the numbers of people involved in re-bolting is extremely low.

The end result is that although a few people have chipped in, most of the work so far has ended up being done by 2 people, namely GG and Kristian.

The BMC has tried to increase numbers by running a free workshop, to no real effect.

OK, now for some questions:

Any ideas about how to increase the pool of competent and active re-equipers?

Is this necessary, or do people feel there is little work needing doing?

What can the BMC do to help?

Do any of you have the time, expertise and inclination to get involved?

Do any of you sport climb anyway, I hear even Shark has taken up bouldering and ladder climbing these days 

[Paul B]

The Peak Bolt Fund has done fairly well with fundraising, and has had some support from the BMC. In general, bolts, drills and equipment are available for re-equiping.

It's also worth noting that the fund is now fairly low (however after our last purchase and winning some free-BMC bolts we should have a reasonable stock of hardware for now)...

[James Malloch]

I've no experience in it, but have 3.5 months of summer between uni and work where I plan to bum around and climb in the peak/yorkshire/wales.

So if there was anything that I could help with I'd be more than happy to give up time and lend a hand...

[Johnny Brown]

most of the work so far has ended up being done by 2 people, namely GG and Kristian

The routes cleaned and re-equipped thread would suggest other folk are keen and active bar doing any actual drilling. I guess this might be down to a few things: folk know there are delicate areas where it might cause issues; folk don't know exactly what they're doing with regard to current best practice; they don't have access to a drill; they can't be arsed as all limestone climbers are selfish types who wouldn't lend you tuppence if it didn't increase their chances of ticking the next grade.

If the PBF drill still alive? As I've said before I'd be happy to host it at Abracadabseil so peeps can pick it up/ drop it off during working hours. If there are only a couple involved I guess it's not helpful though.

[dave]

I reckon time is a big factor. Anyone with say a full time job and family commitments is likely to struggle to get out climbing as much as they want, never mind giving over time to rebolting. They'd basically have to give up climbing for a season, which is what I recall Kristian did when he rebolted the Tor.

So for a pool of potential rebolters you need to tap into the market of keen unemployable undateable impotent orphans.

[TMR]

I'm very interested in learning how to bolt/re-equip so if there were to be any future workshops i'd be keen as mustard.

[205Chris]

Props is probably also due to Jon Clark for almost single handedly rebolting the Cheedale cornice a few years back.

A few thoughts:

I don't think it's just a case of running a bolting workshop. For many of the sport routes in the peak it's pretty hard to get  to the top of them without jugging up the bolts (i.e. you can't walk round). Unless they're big into aid climbing I'm guessing a lot of people won't have the jumars / kit necessary.

How do people know what needs replacing. I'd like to think most climbers can spot a dodgy bolt but who makes the call? If funds / kit is limited you don't want to waste it replacing stuff just because one person thinks it looks a bit suspect.

Plus I think JB's right, there's an awful lot of apathy about.

[TMR]

although i have a job, the ability to reproduce and parents.

[Neil F]

If the PBF drill still alive?

Sadly, I don't think it is. This came as quite a shock as the last time I'd seen it, it was a brand new top notch Hilti with a raft of high quality masonry bits.

My mate Jon de Montjoye managed to make the Hilti I got him just before he emigrated to the French alps, last about 15 years before he needed to replace one of the batteries.  And during that time he equipped countless classic routes at Gietroz and Barbarine, amongst other venues.

Either Hilti's aren't made like they used to be (which is possible) or the PBF drill simply didn't get the level of TLC it required.

Whichever it was, the drill only lasted a fraction of the time I was expecting, and that was a big disappointment to me...

[Paul B]

The 36v Hitachi is. The controller went but was replaced under warranty.

I believe this drill plus 2 batteries was cheaper than repairing the Hilti.

[kc]

Props is probably also due to Jon Clark for almost single handedly rebolting the Cheedale cornice a few years back.

Yes he did do a great job cleaning up and reequipping half a dozen routes on the Cornice, which is no small task. There were a few others that got stuck in that year too. There are still many routes there that need seeing to so when a dry season comes there is still a lot to do.

If anyone was serious about giving a hand they would have surly contacted the PBF, BMC or even asked the question on here. Their investigations would have found that there is a good working drill, loads of gear and jumar equipment all securely held and readily available just off Ringinglow road. What more could you ask for? Of course the loan of the kit is going to be subject to conditions as you would expect.

 I am sure Dan or I can schedule some sort of workshop again if there was a call for it, but the last one attracted the wrong sort and to date has made zero difference.

There are plenty of dangerous bolts out there. Lower offs that need replacing /installing on environmental, aesthetic and access grounds.

What I would like to know is how many volunteers of bolt funds are active in Wales, Yorks and Dorset. Are they all waifs and strays or is it that just a Peak requirement.

[danm]

N.Wales has probably the biggest crew when it comes to bolting, about a dozen. A very different situation there though, with a fair bit of scope for new routing (not so much now, but certainly over the last 5 years) and perhaps more importantly, a much wider grade range of quality routes. Then again, there have been problems with some incompetent bolting, so perhaps quantity isn't always best.

I do understand KC's weary cynicism (I think bolting can do that to a man!) but just a couple of the right sort of people getting involved could make a difference.

[Gallant]

So for a pool of potential rebolters you need to tap into the market of keen unemployable undateable impotent orphans.

Also known as students?

I'd more than probably be willing to use my summer to reequip routes if I'm floating about in Sheffield. My skin is so bad that I can barely climb at the moment it's too warm, so summer is almost definitely a write off, thus, bolting might be a better use of time.

[Johnny Brown]

There are plenty of dangerous bolts out there. Lower offs that need replacing /installing on environmental, aesthetic and access grounds.

Any chance you could list a few, particularly any high priority ones? I suspect some of the problem is a lack of knowledge of exactly what needs doing.

[petejh]

Kristian (and Dan) - while there might be a couple more people in N.Wales it's basically the same story as the Peak - it's the waifs and strays, aka obsessive freaks - that do the work. Of the literally thousands of bolts replaced over the last 7-10 years I'd confidently say 3 people have done 90% of them. But now that most of the proper big physical efforts - which required the weirdo's who relish that sort of challenge - have been done, it just leaves the fillers-in here and there that need doing and this is where the occasional enthusiastic person can help - doing one route once a year is achievable for these people in terms of time and effort.

Doing a lot of re-bolting work is well-hard, dirty, physical, slow, lonely, time spent not climbing, you might hurt yourself, zero glory, and if you do a proper job you'll end up sorting out routes you won't even ever climb. If you do it once a year or every couple of years it'll take ages, comparatively, to do one route and I think that puts off a lot of people from doing more, quite sensibly.

I wouldn't bother with workshops they are a complete waste of time and just sound/look good to the sort of talking heads that go to BMC area meetings but who contribute very little on a ratio of real work-to-words uttered. A better use of time would be to take notice of the one person who's most keen and teach him properly then give him all the gear and let him expend his energy.
Or - find an underemployed illegal immigrant with solid rope access skills - these could be taught at Adam's place and paid for by the BMC - who is physically resilient and who likes sport climbing. I'm thinking Chinese. Lure him into learning the dark art of re-equipping routes then press-gang him into reequipping a whole crag on threat of having a word with the immigration authorities. You could develop a whole gang of them.

[shark]

but just a couple of the right sort of people getting involved could make a difference.

Thanks for doing the workshop Dan. I felt at the time (and said so) that a good way to take it further was a follow up with those that attended. My suggestion was to organise on here or by email for each attendee to have the drill for a month and a list of routes to rebolt before passing on to the next one.

I think a more proactive approach to mobilisation/organisation is required if the work is ever going to be spread out more equitably. It is understandable that there is little take up for all the reason that petejh mentions and more. Personally I hate the big sense of responsibility to get it right in terms of where the bolt goes (god how climbers moan if you get this wrong) and ensuring each placement is safe particularly as practical DIY type tasks are not my forte. It always takes me longer than I expect to do bolting work and little glitches can bring everything to standstill (battery problems, glue going off too quick, running out of nozzles, forgeting right size drill bit etc).

Also the buck is likely to stop with the bolt placer if there is litigation due to bolt failure. This is thankfully untested so far but if it was the onus is likely to be on the bolter to prove that best practice was followed. Hardly a great incentive to get stuck in to re-bolting though I suspect is an aspect that many haven't thought too much about though I think anyone who gets involved in rebolting should be aware, or made aware, of this risk. 

In my experience glue ins are far more problematic and messy than thru bolts to place for anyone other than veteran organised bolters and even then there have been issues. I understand the advantages of longevity.

I would love that the BMC paid the likes of petejh and kristian to do the work so there is a consistent high standard of rebolting on an agreed rebolting programme and can think of a number of things I would prefer the BMC didnt fund instead of this. However, even without the current BMC deficit this is unfortunately unlikely to happen any time soon, if ever as there are associated liability issues to grapple with amongst other things.

Also you don't have to just go to the PBF. If anyone wants to use mine for short periods (I also have some PBF metal work) they're welcome. So far nobobody's taken me up on my offer.

[kc]

Pete you are so right in what you say, I too have come to the same conclusions. The only problem is "that" one other person has not stepped forward yet.

 Every year I bump into one or two people that sound ultra-keen to give a hand. We discuss what needs doing, exchange numbers and that is the last I hear from them. I have even given out gear to be used and it is still in the bottom of their sacks!
As for a list of what needs doing? I seem to keep making these dam lists of things that need doing but no one seems to bite. Just trawl back through the threads. It should be obvious to anybody that strays from the Tor and the crappy polished star chaser trade routes. Stuff like lightweight and why me are blindingly obvious and very popular too.
I was asked by the reserve manage down dale to get some lower offs installed on the big Chee. These are trad routes of course but she does not want anyone walking off the top of the crag. Having not done any of these routes I do not really no if there is a descent track or not, or if any of the routes require a bolt abseil that cannot be arranged by a fixed tree abseil point?

If it would help a comprehensive list could be compiled but it would need more than my input.

[shark]

I was asked by the reserve manage down dale to get some lower offs installed on the big Chee. These are trad routes of course but she does not want anyone walking off the top of the crag. Having not done any of these routes I do not really no if there is a descent track or not, or if any of the routes require a bolt abseil that cannot be arranged by a fixed tree abseil point?

It is not overgrown at the top so easy to walk off but no distinct path even 20 years ago IIRC let alone now. Yes loads of trees so fixed tree abseil points would be the better than bolts not that she should fret that much as not many get that far these days except on Mortlocks and Absent Friends and stuff leftwards and then you would sling a rope round a tree and ab rather than hike all the way to Dogs Dinner.   

[kc]

Thanks Simon, thought that might be the case. One less job and a grim one at that.
There are still the trad route lower off's at Rubbercorn to do.

[Johnny Brown]

Yes, as Shark said Chee tor is fine. There are plenty of lower offs (inc several wire strop/ mail links) on the trees, nobody walks down.

I've done a good few of them, and. I'm don't remember thinking that the trad routes at Rubicon need bolted lower offs either, though I'll have to pop down and remind myself of the exact current arrangements.

Lightweight was my first 7c a few years back. The bolts didn't strike me as in dire need of replacement?

If these are at the top of the current list then I'm not surprised folk aren't rushing forward!

[kc]

Then you weren't looking. Lightweight's bolts are by no means the top of the list. I only made that example as it is a popular route. Stung at nettle buttress is really bad and there are many more lesser known but good routes in a bad way.
As for Rubicon the top of the routes are under a curtain of ivy topped with jungle. All this with a very busy path under. There are a few ugly chains and iffy bolt peg arrangements.