[Sloper]

Personally I would make every child >12 years read Siegfried Sassoon's autobiography (all 3 volumes) as well as a good deal of war poetry and the like and remind them that Owen won the MC + Bar.

I also think it's worth having the perspective that a lot couldn't wait to have pot shot at the kaiser's men and that thousands of recruits were not fit for service due to the effects of poverty.

What I am concerned about is that we'll miss the point with the whole debate being about the distortion of the whole thing into the reprise of 'oh what a lovely war'.

Your thoughts?

[tomtom]

My Grandfather went to the Somme aged 18. He was one of 4 people from 400 in his regiment who went over that survived the war. He never ever spoke about it - even under pestering demand from a young TomTom who at the age of 12 or so was interested in war, tanks, guns etc...

I think we should remember the sacrifice of life (I will) that went with that the slaughter of WW1. If there was or was not a good reason for the slaughter is for me not an issue - we should not forget the massive scale of loss of fathers, sons, friends etc.. that happened on all sides.

Any politicisation of it (from either side) disinterests and sickens me in varying proportions.

[webbo]

Personally I would report anyone who forces children to read poetry to the local safe guarding children team for abuse.

[Stubbs]

Sloper well done for another opening post where you make yourself sound like a bit of a cunt.

I've learnt more about the whole thing than I knew before (like about the east coast being bombarded). I also heard a very good programme about the propaganda at home and on the continent, which may have helped make people so they 'couldn't wait to have a pot shot at the kaiser's men'. How do you think they felt once they got in the trenches Sloper, still pretty keen?

What is the point that you think we may miss because Blackadder is so good?

[petejh]

sigh...

.. and remind them that Owen won the MC + Bar.

Implying what? That he was brave and remained independently-minded? Are the two incompatible?

What I am concerned about is that we'll miss the point with the whole debate being about the distortion of the whole thing into the reprise of 'oh what a lovely war'.

The point of the debate being what?

Your thoughts?

War is hell?

[Oldmanmatt]

sigh...

.. and remind them that Owen won the MC + Bar.

Implying what? That he was brave and remained independently-minded? Are the two incompatible?

What I am concerned about is that we'll miss the point with the whole debate being about the distortion of the whole thing into the reprise of 'oh what a lovely war'.

The point of the debate being what?

Your thoughts?

War is hell?

Amen...

[andy popp]

My Grandfather went to the Somme aged 18. He was one of 4 people from 400 in his regiment who went over that survived the war.

My grandfather didn't make it ... shot in the last weeks of the war in 1918. Should have been in Canada minding his recently-acquired farm and law business and ignoring his patriotic impulses.

My grandfather was on the Somme too - though a gunner not a poor bloody infantryman. Nonetheless he was gassed more than once. Growing up my neighbour was Colonel Osmond of the RAMC; he was the only medical officer in a column of British POWs taken on an horrific forced march by the Turks. In other words I grew up surrounded by these memories, which were very much still alive, even if few wanted to talk of them.

For me, how we remember those who served, in all capacities, including conscientious objectors like mountaineer Geoffrey Winthrop Young in the Friends Ambulance Service, is a completely separate question from how we remember the war. The first is a simple question of humanity, the second is rightly one that should be subject to intense scrutiny and debate. It's completely possible to condemn the war, but not those who served.

I think you'll find many school children read some war poetry at school, my daughter certainly.

[andy popp]

ps. if the debate has been skewed then in this case the prime culprit is undoubtedly Gove, whose intervention a couple of months ago was crass beyond belief.

[Oldmanmatt]

My Great grandfather fought in both wars (and the Boer war too), he served mainly at sea (was sunk three times at Jutland). As a gunner he spent a spell with the Naval parties in the trenches (Marched to Mafeking with the Naval Artillery during the Boer). My next door neighbour (a Great uncle on my mothers side) was gassed in the trenches. My Mothers Grandfather lost his farm after being gassed. I was pretty much raised on tales of the Wars (they seemed to run together in the minds of those men, most of them fought in both) and as I recall the consensus opinion was very much in the Black Adder vein, not the Gove.
I come from a Military family and served myself, there was no lack of pride, just a bitterness at the waste and inequality between the General staff and the front (something which changed dramatically by WW2, because those who had been junior officers in WW1 were also fully aware and disgusted by the arrogance of those pricks).

There is also a very real difference between the rise of the maniac Hiltler and a petty spat between Cousins fought with the blood of Europe. 

[Rocksteady]

One of the best things I ever did at school was a trip for History GCSE to the WW1 battlefields. The acres of white crosses for the fallen, the names covering every inch of huge stone memorials brought home the horror of war more than reading Owen or Sassoon or Graves (though it made them all the more readable after that).

We met an old man on a bench who'd travelled from England to visit the grave of his lieutenant who'd saved his life.

Still makes me well up a bit thinking about it now.

[Sloper]

Sloper well done for another opening post where you make yourself sound like a bit of a cunt.

I've learnt more about the whole thing than I knew before (like about the east coast being bombarded). I also heard a very good programme about the propaganda at home and on the continent, which may have helped make people so they 'couldn't wait to have a pot shot at the kaiser's men'. How do you think they felt once they got in the trenches Sloper, still pretty keen?

What is the point that you think we may miss because Blackadder is so good?

And well done for the opening line of your post where you pretty much remove the doubt as to your status as a genital.

My reference to 'oh what a lovely war' (not Blackadder) is that fictional and comedic portrayals of the war will by their nature be distorted, inaccurate and misleading. 

[Stubbs]

My reference to 'oh what a lovely war' (not Blackadder) is that fictional and comedic portrayals of the war will by their nature be distorted, inaccurate and misleading.

You'll note that Blackadder is another fictional and comedic portrayal of the war, the example favoured by your pal Gove I believe.  Was that your only point then, that comedy and fiction are distorted? What about historical texts, which one of those should we trust?

[Sloper]

There's the old adage about history being written by the victor, and of course one can have different interpretations as to the causes of historical events and matters generally, 'history' can be written as propaganda and as deliberately misleading as fiction.

For example Hobswam or what ever his name was would present things from a Marxist perspective others would not.  That's why reading a plurality of sources, from participants together with other information is my suggestion for how we commemorate.

The difference is that a significant proportion of history is written to be factually accurate whereas comedy is not.

The difficulty is that the history of WWI is complex, voluminous and remains contentious and that combination makes the presentation of the subject in popular media channels almost impossible hence the revision to the recent cultural meme.

Perhaps rather going for the simplistic and instinctively aggressive approach, which makes you sound like a cvnt (to use your charming phrase) you might try engaging your mind.

[SA Chris]

My reference to 'oh what a lovely war' (not Blackadder) is that fictional and comedic portrayals of the war will by their nature be distorted, inaccurate and misleading.

You'll note that Blackadder is another fictional and comedic portrayal of the war, the example favoured by your pal Gove I believe.  Was that your only point then, that comedy and fiction are distorted? What about historical texts, which one of those should we trust?

My interpretation was that Gove is not in favour of the "Blackadder portrayal" of WWI?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25612369

[Rocksteady]

Can't remember if I talked about this on the Books thread, but 'Into the Silence' by Wade Davis was excellent at bringing home the effects of WWI on those that came back, using the exploration of Everest as a way of illustrating peoples' attitudes to life, death and adventure in the aftermath.

There's a bit in the Wade Davis book where it talks about one mountaineer having something like 3 people left out of his school year, and no-one of his contemporaries in his mountaineering club.

Truly a lost generation.

[Stubbs]

Sorry Chris I meant the example that Gove used of a comedy showing people having a shit time in the trenches whilst the top brass were completely detached from the reality of the conflict, and as it was a comedy showing it, it couldn't possibly have any truth in it, and must be a lefty conspiracy to rewrite history.

[SA Chris]

'Into the Silence' by Wade Davis

Thanks for the reminder, need to add to "to read" list.

My great grandfather suffered a near fatal injury being shot in the shoulder and nearly bleeding to death, was patched up and blightied home and returned to family business, and had 3 sons, all of whom died in WWII. The other two brothers had no children, luckily my grandfather had 2 daughters before he died, and I'm doubly lucky I even exist. 

[Oldmanmatt]

Another harrowing, but worthwhile, trip is to visit the deserted villages of France. Many a long way from Flanders (there is one in the Tarn Gorge), where the entire male population were wiped out and the community simply packed up and left.

My late wife's village, on the outskirts of  Campulung, Arges, Romania, sits in the shadow (a ten minute walk up the open grassy mountainside) of Mausoleul Eroilor Mateiaș - Heroes' Mausoleum Campulung Muscel Arges; which marks the final stand of the Romanian army against the Austro-Hungarians. Her village was named  Na^ma^est,i (sorry, wrong keyboard) which literally translates as "no one left/here" and that's one of the fronts of that war totally forgotten in the West.
Also, we forget that the war did not end in 1918. Only that part which involved Germany.
Hungary went on to invade Transilvania again in 1919 and and it took the best part of a year to drive them back.

Some might argue that the conflict still raged into the '90s (it was always described to us that way in briefings during the conflict) and anyone who had dealings with Yugoslavia and the lovely, civilised, Serbs will understand my point...