[galpinos]

yes but can't recall the link, go on...

Ben Moon in Northumberland getting agro with his mate because he was making a pig's ear of giving him a leg up.

[Sasquatch]

FFS.  Unless the ethics involved directly impact someone else's experience, then who really cares.  I've used ladders, ropes, and done loads of ground up over the years.  It's always come down to a personal experience.  If someone wants to step up and do it ground up in better style, then more power to them, but I'm also not going to judge the person for abbing down and figuring out the moves, or setting a ladder and figuring out the moves.  Just don't check the whole thing out on a ladder then say you did it ground up. 

So for clarity:
Lying = bad
direct impact on others experience = bad
something which diminishes your personal experience = bad
something which gives an old man a better chance to climb something with hurting himself = ok

[cowboyhat]

something which gives an old man a better chance to climb something with hurting himself = ok

Yes there is a chance he could fall off or onto the ladder.

Taking the piss out of Shark on his own thread on his own forum = ok

[tomtom]

Wind ups aside, if a tactic is OK for hard problems then it is OK for easier ones.

Out tomorrow?

Yep

Send train Friday then

[Fiend]

Send train ladder Friday then

[John Gillott]

if a tactic is OK for hard problems then it is OK for easier ones

Taking a step back, for me there's something intrinsically self-defeating about taking a ladder rock climbing. A LADDER! It's like taking a motorbike to the tour de france.

That's brilliant. Like everyone else, I love the videos of you showboating on DIY and other HVSs from the early '80s and before, and hope you manage to carry on doing that into your 80s above a suitably thick pile of next-next-next generation Ronin and Moon mats in the right combination. But surely even you must see that you've managed to invent a most peculiar principle here? Bum shoves OK, shoulders OK, Mats OK, traversing in from the side in order to reach down off the jug and feel the holds OK? But a LADDER? Oh no, Shark's crossed a line here..

... Would you prefer it if he ditched the ladder and turned this into a mutli-year siege, adding his own bit of wear and polish to the holds?

(Of course that won't happen now. I'm confidence he'll tick it tomorrow or on the weekend. C'mon Sahrk, fire us oldies up, and don't forget to let out a shout when you do it).

[lagerstarfish]

I can't wait to use the phrase "I can't link the moves yet, but at least I've got my foot on the first rung of the sending ladder"

[davej]

Historically seem to remember there was a hold cleaning ladder at cragx  Is it still there??

[tomtom]

I can't wait to use the phrase "I can't link the moves yet, but at least I've got my foot on the first rung of the sending ladder"

Ah.. but the higher up the ladder the worse the fall...

[lagerstarfish]

is anyone working on a guidebook to Peak District via ferratas ?

[Johnny Brown]

... Would you prefer it if he ditched the ladder and turned this into a mutli-year siege, adding his own bit of wear and polish to the holds?

Well knowing Shark, that's how he rolls as a rule so I doubt I'll have much to do with it.

But I doubt he will significantly change the wear he exerts on this problem by using a ladder, and if he isn't careful (I'm sure he is) it could easily be much worse with. And yes, for me it's a piece of aid that crosses a line from the reasonable to the ridiculous. I'm not trying to stop progress here - I first did it above a bar towel as I did all those other HVSs I now happily pad out.

Basically the acceptability of any point of aid is inversely related to the number of previous ascents that did without it.

[Norton Sharley]

How many pads is he allowed to use before it is no longer considered a proper ascent? 

[Johnny Brown]

Ten.

[Jaspersharpe]

He'll need the ladder to get on to the stack of pads.

[Rocksteady]

Would it be OK if he stacked the pads out in ladder format, so starting from some distance away he was quite low but by the time he got to WSS he was at the height of the scary bit?

[Johnny Brown]

Balancing on wobbly pad stacks is all part of the game. Anyone who gets to the third sidepull on West side with nary a wobbly pad stack has my full respect.

[bendavison]

So would using a poorly made ladder be acceptable? It could break at any moment and is surely more dangerous than wobbly pads. Less effort to carry up there, less noticable and you get the full danger experience. Whatever the hell that is.

Ladders are just another tool for the 'job'. I'd use a helicopter if it increased my chances on something (and if my first name was Sheikh).

[Jaspersharpe]

So would using a poorly made ladder be acceptable? It could break at any moment and is surely more dangerous than wobbly pads.

I think I remember travs saying that he'd attempted to make his own cragx style mini ladder but that it turned out shit and ended up being an English 6c move to try to get balanced on it.

This was definitley acceptable and very funny.

[Bonjoy]

I think it's more a question of credit/respect (including self respect)/kudos, rather than ethics/validity. I'd say using a ladder doesn't break any pre-existing ethical 'rules' of bouldering at all but it does loose you credit/respect/kudos, the size of the effect is related to various vague factors, such as precedent (is it common practice on said problem), location, landing, problem type, height, popularity/status (of prob, though it arguably applies to the climber as well) and difficulty.
Applying this principle I reckon you loose more c/r/k for not topping out than for using a ladder. But it's all a matter of opinion (which you did ask for shark).
I've used ladders for some stuff, I wouldn't be seen dead using them on others. For weight and portability I personally rate ropes unless the prob is overhung.

[Johnny Brown]

I'd use a helicopter if it increased my chances on something (and if my first name was Sheikh).

Great post. You've neatly illustrated exactly how it's the attitude, not the tools, that are the root of the problem here.

Satisfaction for most in climbing comes from measuring up to the challenge, not by reducing it.

[lagerstarfish]

wooden ladders don't conduct power very well

with aluminium you run the risk of being accused of leaching power from the chap footing the ladder

[Bonjoy]

Only if you're barefoot or wearing horseshoes

[bendavison]

Satisfaction for most in climbing comes from measuring up to the challenge, not by reducing it.

I guess that's where we differ. The challenge for me, at least, is climbing it. I don't try to come up with extra rules to alter that challenge. (As an aside, I wouldn't actually use a helicopter - it might reduce other peoples' enjoyment. But it illustrated my point)
 

[abarro81]

Do I lose points if I use a ladder to dry holds? Done that in the cave a number of times, although I guess I don't have much respect left in that place to lose 

I think it's more a question of credit/respect (including self respect)/kudos, rather than ethics/validity. I'd say using a ladder doesn't break any pre-existing ethical 'rules' of bouldering at all but it does loose you credit/respect/kudos, the size of the effect is related to various vague factors, such as precedent (is it common practice on said problem), location, landing, problem type, height, popularity/status (of prob, though it arguably applies to the climber as well) and difficulty.
Applying this principle I reckon you loose more c/r/k for not topping out than for using a ladder.

This is spot on IMO

[Norton Sharley]

respect = a x (46 - number of days to do route / problem*) - b x (10 - number of pads used) - c x (6 - rungs on ladder used)


where;
46 = international standard at which the number of days to do a route becomes ridiculous, could be different for a boulder problem
10 = JB Peak standard number of acceptable pads
6 = assumed number of rungs on Shark's ladder

a, b & c to be defined