[shark]

Just like The Rail at Bowden? Funnily, don't recall so many folk raising an eyebrow at that.

Or at the effective use of the ladder which would have easily been visible from Burbage Bridge via military satellite

[tomtom]

:D

[Johnny Brown]

I thought we'd already covered this point? What is justifable for opening a cutting edge new problem on rock too steep to top-rope is not necessarily justifiable on a thirty-year old mid-grade classic already ascended by thousands, none of whom used such an aid.

[shark]

I thought we'd already covered this point? What is justifable for opening a cutting edge new problem on rock too steep to top-rope is not necessarily justifiable on a thirty-year old mid-grade classic already ascended by thousands, none of whom used such an aid.

I am reminded of Troll including a note in its chalk bags on only using chalk on moves of 6a and harder.

[davej]

new term  needed ???  'ladder point ascent'

[shark]

new term  needed ???  'ladder point ascent'

Would last as long as pinkpoint

[lagerstarfish]

already covered by "worked (no power tools)"

[Danny]

Is that The Rail that has only had one ascent that deliberately stopped off at a drop off jug because "joins a horrible sandy, but easy, top out of an E4 at that point which i would guess hasn't been done for 20 years and will be pretty covered in heather", or a different Rail??

Yes, that one. And the stated reason for dropping off may or may not be the opinion of the FA, who could just as easily have been after a hard bit of climbing, regardless of what came next. Put a classic E4 on top of that and you might be just as inclined to drop off after 8B+. 

I knew this would be your reply, which is why I made the point in the way that I did. The only difference between what Shark has done and what Dan did is one of precedent - in once case establishing in the other case breaking from. I see no (good) reason why this difference should matter at all, provided there is honesty and the rock isn't damaged.

Personally, if I ever get around to trying WSS I'll be trying to top it without ladderaid. But that's my own bag.   

[lagerstarfish]

I thought we'd already covered this point? What is justifable for opening a cutting edge new problem on rock too steep to top-rope is not necessarily justifiable on a thirty-year old mid-grade classic already ascended by thousands, none of whom used such an aid.

next thing you'll be moaning about the wheelchair access to The Matterhorn

[pyrosis]

Alex Honnold and Matt Segal were at the milks a few months ago climbing the upper slab of this thing, sans rope but using a ladder to skip the v9 opening and get straight up to the v5x slab above.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

As an aside, and looking on from an old, old school perspective, which has more appeal, ladder and no mats, or mats and no ladder? I bet the former would result in less wear and tear on the rock, and has a certain aesthetic appeal for me - as long as it's a wooden ladder of course, with an old beer towel at the bottom.. ..in case the top out is too exciting..

Of course, using both.. well that must be a double cheat ;-)

Don't get caught looking stoked when you hit the break, that's my advice.

[gme]

5 pages and getting all serious. i just thought it was a bit of an opportunity to take the piss out of shark for being weak.

Doesn't crag x have a ladder and always did. I don't remember any objections to that and the crag is shorter than WSS.

[Jaspersharpe]

Yeah but some of the problems there are hard.

[shark]

Wind ups aside, if a tactic is OK for hard problems then it is OK for easier ones.

[Stubbs]

[ukc]Does that mean it's OK to headpoint Severes?[/ukc]

[Johnny Brown]

if a tactic is OK for hard problems then it is OK for easier ones

Wind-ups aside, I don't agree. From oxygen-fed siege-style in the Himalaya to chipping at Froggatt, breaking new ground has always involved pushing the limits of acceptability. The more extreme cheats do not typically filter down to the masses, and rightly so.

Taking a step back, for me there's something intrinsically self-defeating about taking a ladder rock climbing. A LADDER! It's like taking a motorbike to the tour de france.

[SA Chris]

Except the Bowderstone.

[r-man]

A LADDER! It's like taking a motorbike to the tour de france.

Yes, if you use the motorbike to check out sections of the course before you ride it properly.

[cowboyhat]

[ukc]Does that mean it's OK to headpoint Severes?[/ukc]

People do. I witnessed this on a school trip in 1991 I would have soloed it to to prove a point to the teacher but Jasper had already beaten me too it.

if a tactic is OK for hard problems then it is OK for easier ones

 A LADDER! It's like taking a motorbike to the tour de france.

Thats a terrible analogy. As with a lot of debate in climbing this all seems to be about the consensus spirit of things and precedent which in this case means that WSS is not the place for a ladder.

[Wood FT]

to the anti-ladders-on-grit-classic-boulders-brigade:

if Shark stood on TT's back to grope the sidepull, is this use of combined tactics ok? GENUINE QUESTION

[tomtom]

Wind ups aside, if a tactic is OK for hard problems then it is OK for easier ones.

Out tomorrow?

[tomtom]

to the anti-ladders-on-grit-classic-boulders-brigade:

if Shark stood on TT's back to grope the sidepull, is this use of combined tactics ok? GENUINE QUESTION

Its not OK by me! #badback

[galpinos]

to the anti-ladders-on-grit-classic-boulders-brigade:

if Shark stood on TT's back to grope the sidepull, is this use of combined tactics ok? GENUINE QUESTION

Yes, have you not seen Stick it?

[Wood FT]

yes but can't recall the link, go on...

[shark]

Wind ups aside, if a tactic is OK for hard problems then it is OK for easier ones.

Out tomorrow?

Yep