[Doylo]

Pasquills fit as fuck

[Johnny Brown]

My point exactly.

[T_B]

If we did have some savvy advertising peeps they'd realise the perfect ambassador is the climber who is not only the best but also modest and laidback.

There's modest and laidback (Sharma) and there's just plain shy. Check out the top names in the world (Nalle, P-Rob, Dave G, Honnold etc) on Instagram - they're putting stuff out every day. If you're not willing to push every ascent through social media, you're not worth a few pairs of boots. The short clip of Honnold soloing that thing in Mexico was everywhere on social media within a few days.

A couple of the most heavily 'marketed' British climbers of the past 15 years or so would be Emmett and Gresham. I doubt either would consider themselves to have ever been 'the best' or whatever, but their personalities and ability to communicate is their value:

Gresham on the sofa at the BBC - probably the best bit of explanation of rock climbing to the masses that I've seen on mainstream TV

[Doylo]

I just watched that and imagined Ryan being interviewed on BBC news. Pissing myself!!!

[Rocksteady]

And relatively average talents, who are keen to publicise, get recognition beyond their relative accomplishments.

I read this and just thought 'isn't this how life works?'

Can think of many examples at work where people who are good at networking, promoting what they do, and 'managing up' get a lot more recognition than people who are actually much better at their jobs.

Think about books you see on the shelves at Tesco. A lot of them are badly-written trash. But I bet the author is excellent at promoting themselves, and has pitched their product to a clearly defined market etc. They'll also be a lot richer than a lot of 'better' writers.

Same must hold true for sponsorship - if you make it easy for the sponsor to see your accomplishments and how they'll get a benefit from sponsoring you, you'll get the gig over someone who's better at climbing/whatever activity but can't sell their 'brand'.

[Danny]

I just watched that and imagined Ryan being interviewed on BBC news. Pissing myself!!!

Which is exactly my point...maybe badly made by an oblique crime factoid. Even Ondra (who is probably so good as to be a special case) isn't exactly a sponsors wet dream in terms of looks, but beyond immediate ability is actually well spoken and very engaging.

[Johnny Brown]

A couple of the most heavily 'marketed' British climbers of the past 15 years or so would be Emmett and Gresham. I doubt either would consider themselves to have ever been 'the best' or whatever...

A great example. Tim and Neil's posed, logo plastered ascents were all over the mags when I was young and impressionable. I, and many of my contemporaries, found them a massive turn-off and consciously avoided the 'cheesy' brands they promoted. As I said, I don't think British climbers are vapid fanbois for whom this kind of marketing has much appeal.

Comparisons with american sponsored climbers aren't particularly valid because they actually get paid proper salaries worth doing some work for. I'm sure if you offered Ryan £30k a year he might manage to tweet occasionally. 

[gme]

A couple of the most heavily 'marketed' British climbers of the past 15 years or so would be Emmett and Gresham. I doubt either would consider themselves to have ever been 'the best' or whatever...

A great example. Tim and Neil's posed, logo plastered ascents were all over the mags when I was young and impressionable. I, and many of my contemporaries, found them a massive turn-off and consciously avoided the 'cheesy' brands they promoted. As I said, I don't think British climbers are vapid fanbois for whom this kind of marketing has much appeal.

I really believe that you are in a minority, most of us have fallen for marketing of this type before. Plus the marketing people get around this by the promotion of the Johnny Dawes type anti hero to get to people turned off by the "cheesy" stuff, but we still all fall for it. 

As you get older you kind of see through it all a bit but by then your not the target market anymore so dont really count.

Neil is the perfect example of the type of climber we are talking about, he was never the best by a decent margin but has gone on to make a successful career out of climbing by giving the companies that sponsor him a good return and raising his profile to there and his benefit. I would hazard a guess that he would appear on a lot more punters "best climber in Britain" list than some of the people dropped by 5.10 would.

[Muenchener]

I'm not sure what the problem is here, and/or some people seem to be operating on a remarkably narrow definition of "merit".

Let's assume there are climbers who are very good at actual climbing, not much interested in the commercial/self-promotion aspect of being a professional climber, and quietly go about enjoying their climbing. No problem there as far as I can see.

Then let's suppose there are climbers who very good at actual climbing, are interested in the commercial/self-promotion aspect of being a professional climber, and have applied their undoubted work ethic and self-discipline to that side of things too. Successfully. No problem there either.

Perhaps there are climbers who very good at actual climbing, passionately want somebody to pay them to be professional climbers, but haven't put the effort in to getting good at the commercial/self-promotion aspect yet. We already know these people are capable of a high level of hard work and self-discipline, otherwise they wouldn't have become good climbers. They need to focus some of that that hard work and self-discipline in the direction of learning how to self-promote and offer commercial value to sponsors. These are learnable skills.

I read Jerry's Revelations a couple of weeks ago, and came away with a new level of understanding and respect for what hard work and dedication are really all about. A few folks here should read Jerry's chapter about how a sponsorship is supposed to be a mutually beneficial business deal, how to create commercial value for one's sponsor, and how to make the value one is creating visible and measurable.

A while back I also read Messner's autobiography. (He comes across as a thoroughly miserable git, but ...) Again, he makes it plain that he was working his ass off at various aspects of his job *all the time*, whether it was doing desperately hard and dangerous things, training his ass off for desperately hard and dangerous things, or writing numerous books and doing exhausting lecture tours.

Nobody has any right to expect other people to pay them just for doing their hobby / going on holiday.

[Stubbs]

A great example. Tim and Neil's posed, logo plastered ascents were all over the mags when I was young and impressionable. I, and many of my contemporaries, found them a massive turn-off and consciously avoided the 'cheesy' brands they promoted. As I said, I don't think British climbers are vapid fanbois for whom this kind of marketing has much appeal.

This is just you and your friends though innit, you don't exactly represent the mainstream, i bet you were wearing a Levellers t shirt at the time to show how anti establishment you were    Try talking to an average wall user in London or Bristol, they think of those guys as total legends.

[mindfull]

This guy for blogging about his girlfriend(s)

There is something about that blog that got me a little distracted...

[slackline]

This is all conjecture, none of those actually affected by this have posted on their blogs/twatter/farcebook that they've a grievance.

[galpinos]

I took the missus to a Gresham and Kenton Cool talk. I thought she'd enjoy the Everest bit and I'd enjoy the climbing bit. As it turned outm, we both really enjoyed Grasham and found Kenton very dull. Gresham spoke really well and on a level that engaged a none climber with a slight distain for the sport, my wife, and a pretty keen climber at the same time.

I'd assume that this, combined with the amount of effort he makes to "get himself out there" in the media, is why companies sponser him.

I'm assuming you're still on the 5.10 team JB? 

[SA Chris]

Even Ondra (who is probably so good as to be a special case) isn't exactly a sponsors wet dream in terms of looks, but beyond immediate ability is actually well spoken and very engaging.

I think he's done a bit of work on this with a coach or something, he's definitely getting a lot better at it, used to be terrible.

[Johnny Brown]

I'm assuming you're still on the 5.10 team JB?

I have never been sponsored, but I have been influenced by what gear very good climbers use.

Plus the marketing people get around this by the promotion of the Johnny Dawes type anti hero to get to people turned off by the "cheesy" stuff, but we still all fall for it

No they don't. 'Marketing' people in the outdoor world are simply not operating on this level. Give me an example?

I'm not saying accomplished self-promoters like Tim and Neil don't deserve sponsorship; they do. But alongside the greatest talents, not instead of.

[Teaboy]

A great example. Tim and Neil's posed, logo plastered ascents were all over the mags when I was young and impressionable. I, and many of my contemporaries, found them a massive turn-off and consciously avoided the 'cheesy' brands they promoted. As I said, I don't think British climbers are vapid fanbois for whom this kind of marketing has much appeal.

But the Johnny Brown of 20 years ago is not who 5.10 (or their importers) are trying to appeal to. Climbing is no longer about holey jumpers, smoking rollies and sticking it to the man. I obviously don't know but I'd be prepared to wager that more expensive rock shoes are sold down south than up north, these people area scuffing up £125 rock shoes four time a week down the wall while the rest of us old tight wads are using resoles or whatever we got on offer. The 'down south market' are people who  climb indoors and go on regular trips abroad, as such they are more likely to be influenced by Jakob Schubert or Sean McColl than they are by some talented loafer who nonchalantly repeats scary climbs.

On a tangential note I think Neil Gresham is a climbing hero, he's achieved what he has through hard work, he's maintained a high performance for 20 years and he's maintained  enthusiasm for climbing while the rest if us have dipped in and out or had periods where we've fallen out of love with climbing. He's a climber to the core, who works hard and is personable. Who is more deserving of earning (and I'm sure he earns every penny) a living from climbing?

[Snoops]

Don't forget 5.10 got taken over by Adidas in early 2012. Maybe their sponsorship needs to go in a certain direction:


http://www.outsideonline.com/blog/what-does-the-adidas-five-ten-buyout-mean-for-climbers.html

[Muenchener]

On a tangential note I think Neil Gresham is a climbing hero, he's achieved what he has through hard work, he's maintained a high performance for 20 years and he's maintained  enthusiasm for climbing while the rest if us have dipped in and out or had periods where we've fallen out of love with climbing. He's a climber to the core, who works hard and is personable. Who is more deserving of earning (and I'm sure he earns every penny) a living from climbing?

Mr Gresham may not have been the greatest climber of his generation, but he seems to have a solid track record of substantial achievements, non?

[gme]

JB -It might not be the case in climbing but it is very much the case in other "lifestyle" type sports. Could be down to the climbing companies not being very good at marketing.

Most surf brands latched onto the soul surfer idea, pretty much equivilent to the climbing group I perceive you belong, and seem to be pretty good at selling stuff to hippys proclaiming not to need stuff. And do a great job of branding the anti brands brigade. (Volcom).

[Danny]

Even Ondra (who is probably so good as to be a special case) isn't exactly a sponsors wet dream in terms of looks, but beyond immediate ability is actually well spoken and very engaging.

I think he's done a bit of work on this with a coach or something, he's definitely getting a lot better at it, used to be terrible.

I disagree, bearing in mind that you're largely talking about how he engaged as an adolescent.  Rare drama extrovert types aside, how many 15-18 year olds do you know who could speak with a similar degree of restraint, maturity and confidence?

Ondra has always struck me as intelligent and well spoken, especially compared to others who's first language is English. D. Woods, for example, seems like a nice bloke, but comes across like a vacuous air-head.

[SA Chris]

You mean he isn't an adolescent any more?

I've noticed a dramatic change over the last 6 months or so, I have no doubt an improved command of English may help. Maybe it's just becuse I've paid more attention.

[abarro81]

I would hazard a guess that he would appear on a lot more punters "best climber in Britain" list than some of the people dropped by 5.10 would.

I think this is what ends up rubbing people up the wrong way, even if it shouldn't matter. It seems even on here that some people seem to think that Gresham's achievements are even in the same league as e.g. Ryan's. I'd respectfully say that they're not. I recently saw a picture of Emmett on Dreamcatcher. My instant response was that, unless something has changed since I last heard about his rock climbing exploits, it's pretty disingenuous of him to trade off his high profile as a 'pro climber' to pretend to those who don't know otherwise that he's in the same league as a rock climber as those like Sharma and McColl who've done it, or even those with less of a profile like Mike Foley who've failed to do it (and who I would never have heard of if I'd not met him in RRG last year, but is pretty damn handy, certainly a world better on rock than anything I've heard of Emmett doing). That's not to say TE doesn't deserve the sponsorship he gets, his infectious enthusiasm and ability to self-promote is exactly what sponsors want, but it does mean that punters and newbies basically have no clue about who is good at climbing. E.g. when I started out TE was a hero of mine - he gave a talk at my school and I thought he was the most badass mofo out there. I had no clue that, whilst a long way from being shit, he was miles off the pace when it came to actually climbing HARD on rock. Why would I even question that he's one of the best - he's a pro climber so of course he's one of the best! I guess a lot of people never move beyond that stage to where they really understand what's pretty hard, and what's hard hard. Thinking about it this is what rubs me up the wrong way - it's not that everyone knows x climbs 9a but y climbs 8c and publicises better so gets more sponsorship, it's that the publicising of y climbing 8c feels like them claiming to be top dog, when they know that they're not, i.e. it seems a bit false. It shouldn't wind anyone up, but it can. I really wonder about how my mind works sometimes - I think I need therapy.

[Three Nine]

What winds me up is when some cunt who isn't that good at climbing in the grand scheme of things, gets hooked up by an acquaintance with a rep for a company rep re some sponsorship and promises this acquaintance a free pair of shoes if anything comes of it. This cunt then gets a ton of free shoes, clothes etc (we're not talking three pairs a year), and does not make good on his promise. That's a lot worse than pretending to be better than you are to get some sponsorship.

[Danny]

You mean he isn't an adolescent any more?

If you're 21 then you're a man in my book, boy. Unless you're a woman, or something else.

[cowboyhat]

Anecdotes from the small part of The Castle that I frequent, from the last few weeks.

A guy is confused when the Patch unit burns off his mate Britain's Best Climber Neil Gresham on the wave board.

I have to explain to a guy who Ryan is. I look at him confused, 'he's Britains most naturally talented climber'. Bloke looks at me like i'm talking about Si O'connor. I qualify my statement. Still nothing. (This bloke thinks and talks about climbing all the time, works in a shop watching climbing dvds all day.)

Different guy; I ask, what are those shoes?
 'They're like a Scarpa version of the sportivas'. (turns out he means Solution). 'Yeah Gaz Parry was tweeting about them he reckons they're amazing'
Me: 'Isn't Gaz sponsored by Scarpa?'

etc. I am regularly astounded by what the small number of climbers I come into contact with think. We, the contributors to this thread and even this forum, are a minority. Also I'd guess the distributors and equipment moguls are from the same pool.

I don't envy anyone trying to divvy up a modest marketing budget that will reward the right people as well as raising the profile of a brand and ultimately make sales.

Where is the market research? What are the demographics?