[Fultonius]

Despite being a share-holder...I'd agree that not all brewdog beers are amazing. In fact, their flagship "Punk IPA" I'm not a fan of any more.

I really like dead pony club for a hop-hit at 3.8%.

They've kind of ended up in a strange place - the whole "punk / alt / new on the scene" (whether you liked that or not) thing doesn't work so well when you're now big and corporate.

Anyhoos... I got into real ale before I got into craft beer, and now I'm not a big fan of real ale a lot of the time - I find a lot of real ales dull.

[rossydoodle61]

I'm not feeling this, some of the brewdog bottled beers I've had are among the best I've tasted.

Like any brewery, I've had beers from them that I've liked and beers from them that I haven't liked. I don't rate their core range much (actually, I quite liked 5AM Saint last time I had it), but have had some decent prototype beers they have in the bars.

A lot of their pales seems to be over-carbonated and so hop heavy that there is no malt backbone. I like lots of hops, it just seems imbalanced.

I think there are just more interesting things out there.

[Will Hunt]

The key to Brewdog's success is in their marketing and timing. They explicitly tell their customers that if they don't like the beer then its because they're Tennent's Super swilling idiots. They play up their disagreements with CAMRA because it makes them look edgy and anti-establishment.
This at a time when trendy urban bars are rammed to the rafters with bearded Nathan Barleys who would drink anti-freeze and muse about the quartzy aftertaste and undertones of slaw if they saw that cool guy with the rad beard doing likewise.

Personally, I do like the Punk IPA but find a lot of the other stuff, and in fact quite a few other over-hopped horrors from different breweries, to be utterly undrinkable.

It could be five years, it could be fifteen years, but the craft beer fashion will blow over and at that point Brewdog will have to change or shrink significantly.

[lagerstarfish]

and Tennents Super will still be here

[dave]

So hang on, we're saying the criticism of brewdog is that people don't like 100% of the beers they brew? Jeez, tough crowd.

[Johnny Brown]

Personally I'm fed up of pubs full of citrus tasting straw coloured couldn't beat lager so we imitated it beer. Can't get a decent pint of bitter anywhere. Thank god for Pedigree (which they still call a pale ale - not any more).

[rossydoodle61]

I'm not criticising them really, certainly not for that. I agree with Will that their disagreement with CAMRA is just that, all they want to do is have a disagreement with CAMRA. At the recent CAMRA Manc beer fest there was a keg bar that did very well. No CAMRA complaints there.

Marketing nonsense aside, I think most of their beers are meh to my tastes, but I like some stuff and wouldn't write them off simply for being them. Others seem more militant about it.

[chris20]

I'm not criticising them really, certainly not for that. I agree with Will that their disagreement with CAMRA is just that, all they want to do is have a disagreement with CAMRA. At the recent CAMRA Manc beer fest there was a keg bar that did very well. No CAMRA complaints there.

Marketing nonsense aside, I think most of their beers are meh to my tastes, but I like some stuff and wouldn't write them off simply for being them. Others seem more militant about it.

I'm not a fan of any of their beers that I've tried, they are not to my taste in the same vein that I don't understand what all the fuss is about with Thornbridge, I will drink Thornbridge if it's that or Carling but if I'm in the Bath hotel I'll always go for one of the guest ales.  One of my favorite breweries is Woodfordes which to me is good beer.

The term craft beer fills me with rage, it's fucking beer!! It's made the same way as beer produced by Inbev or Skinners or Coniston and the same way it has been done for hundreds of years!  It's not even a defined style like a Belgian blonde or American IPA.  It's like craft bakeries, you're making bread the same way as other bakeries and the same way bread has been made for thousands of years.  If I grow a beard and start riding a fixie can I have craft sex?

[galpinos]

So hang on, we're saying the criticism of brewdog is that people don't like 100% of the beers they brew? Jeez, tough crowd.

I just said I didn’t like any of the beers they served up in their Manc Bar. We only tried 6 but I wouldn’t by any off them again.

[rossydoodle61]

I'm not criticising them really, certainly not for that. I agree with Will that their disagreement with CAMRA is just that, all they want to do is have a disagreement with CAMRA. At the recent CAMRA Manc beer fest there was a keg bar that did very well. No CAMRA complaints there.

Marketing nonsense aside, I think most of their beers are meh to my tastes, but I like some stuff and wouldn't write them off simply for being them. Others seem more militant about it.

I'm not a fan of any of their beers that I've tried, they are not to my taste in the same vein that I don't understand what all the fuss is about with Thornbridge, I will drink Thornbridge if it's that or Carling but if I'm in the Bath hotel I'll always go for one of the guest ales.  One of my favorite breweries is Woodfordes which to me is good beer.

The term craft beer fills me with rage, it's fucking beer!! It's made the same way as beer produced by Inbev or Skinners or Coniston and the same way it has been done for hundreds of years!  It's not even a defined style like a Belgian blonde or American IPA.  It's like craft bakeries, you're making bread the same way as other bakeries and the same way bread has been made for thousands of years.  If I grow a beard and start riding a fixie can I have craft sex?

I've only ever had Woodfordes from a kit that someone made. I've never had the chance to try their beer on cask as I've never seen it on anywhere really, certainly not Manc way.

[TMR]

The term craft beer fills me with rage, it's fucking beer!! It's made the same way as beer produced by Inbev

Inbev definitely don't make beer the same way as Brewdog or other "craft" breweries.

[chris20]

I've only ever had Woodfordes from a kit that someone made. I've never had the chance to try their beer on cask as I've never seen it on anywhere really, certainly not Manc way.

I grew up about 20 mins from their brewery (which in Norfolk is a short distance) so we would often go their onsite pub and we used to get polypins from them for xmas.

Inbev definitely don't make beer the same way as Brewdog or other "craft" breweries.

They probably use hop oils instead of whole hops but I'm sure some microbreweries are experimenting with them particularly in the copper, how else does the process differ?

[TMR]

They probably use hop oils instead of whole hops but I'm sure some microbreweries are experimenting with them particularly in the copper, how else does the process differ?

Inbev do what is called "high gravity" brewing. To make the most of their tank size they brew a very strong beer and then water it down to the correct alcohol percentage, and then correct flavours with hop extracts and correct colour/malt character with malt extract. The new "Guiness Golden Ale" that's being promoted at the minute has been made for years, it's just guiness without a colour/malt correction at the end. An example from cider is strongbow and frosty jack's. They are made from the same source. Strongbow is just watered down a bit more with some tannins added to produce a bit more bite.

Inbev will also recycle waste from lots of sources to reclaim the fermentable sugar to lower production costs. One of these sources is the dregs in the bottom of all the kegs and casks they receive back from pubs. They just pasturise it and use it again.

"Craft" breweries will do none of the above. Except maybe Camden now they've been sold.

Also, when it comes to kegging, many smaller breweries will just use a filtration plant to remove the majority of the yeast. This means (contrary to what many people believe) keg beer from smaller breweries is still live. Inbev will use a high temp pasturisation.

[a dense loner]

Chris20 I drink thornbridge Brother Rabbit all the time, well 2 pints twice a wk. Lovely stuff

[Will Hunt]

They probably use hop oils instead of whole hops but I'm sure some microbreweries are experimenting with them particularly in the copper, how else does the process differ?

Inbev do what is called "high gravity" brewing. To make the most of their tank size they brew a very strong beer and then water it down to the correct alcohol percentage, and then correct flavours with hop extracts and correct colour/malt character with malt extract. The new "Guiness Golden Ale" that's being promoted at the minute has been made for years, it's just guiness without a colour/malt correction at the end. An example from cider is strongbow and frosty jack's. They are made from the same source. Strongbow is just watered down a bit more with some tannins added to produce a bit more bite.

Inbev will also recycle waste from lots of sources to reclaim the fermentable sugar to lower production costs. One of these sources is the dregs in the bottom of all the kegs and casks they receive back from pubs. They just pasturise it and use it again.

"Craft" breweries will do none of the above. Except maybe Camden now they've been sold.

Also, when it comes to kegging, many smaller breweries will just use a filtration plant to remove the majority of the yeast. This means (contrary to what many people believe) keg beer from smaller breweries is still live. Inbev will use a high temp pasturisation.

Bearing in mind that these breweries are producing for a larger market and are thus not going to try and brew crazy tasting beer anyway, they want to brew beer (maybe deemed boring by some) that lots of people will drink - do these specific practices of reusing materials have a clearly demonstrable negative impact on the quality of the product?
Because if not then surely the defining feature of a craft brewery is that it is inefficient?

[36chambers]

Bearing in mind that these breweries are producing for a larger market and are thus not going to try and brew crazy tasting beer anyway, they want to brew beer (maybe deemed boring by some) that lots of people will drink - do these specific practices of reusing materials have a clearly demonstrable negative impact on the quality of the product?
Because if not then surely the defining feature of a craft brewery is that it is inefficient?

I haven't a clue, but I would probably put money on it. With regards to consumables, isn't the quality almost always compromised when companies try to be as efficient and cost effective as possible. It's certainly the case with the typical god awful bread you find in supermarkets.

[TMR]

they want to brew beer........that lots of people will drink

You've hit the nail on the head there. Most people don't give a shit what they drink as long as it's cheap and involved in some sort of sports sponsorship. Studies have shown that branding has more influence than the actual beer when it comes to people's perception of quality. In my opinion;

Acorn barnsley bitter is better than John Smith's
Punk IPA is better than Carling
Ilkley's Mary Jane is better than Greene King IPA

I would argue that when it comes to producing mass market beer, you cannot dis-entangle efficiency and bland-ness of character as drivers of the end product. I think "craft", although slightly pretentious by design, gets a bad rep due to it's association with hipster-dom.

[TMR]

Because if not then surely the defining feature of a craft brewery is that it is inefficient?

Quality of end product is the defining feature of a craft brewery, as is the case in most of these small companies. It doesnt really matter if they make bread, cheese, beer or bicycles.

[Footwork]

Studies have shown that branding has more influence than the actual beer when it comes to people's perception of quality.

This is especially true for eau de Lynx

[Will Hunt]

they want to brew beer........that lots of people will drink

You've hit the nail on the head there. Most people don't give a shit what they drink as long as it's cheap and involved in some sort of sports sponsorship. Studies have shown that branding has more influence than the actual beer when it comes to people's perception of quality. In my opinion;

Acorn barnsley bitter is better than John Smith's
Punk IPA is better than Carling
Ilkley's Mary Jane is better than Greene King IPA

I would argue that when it comes to producing mass market beer, you cannot dis-entangle efficiency and bland-ness of character as drivers of the end product. I think "craft", although slightly pretentious by design, gets a bad rep due to it's association with hipster-dom.

I think this is where the confusion arises. I've never thought of Acorn or Ilkley beers as "craft" beers. They're just ales aren't they? And those breweries produce plenty of product in a competetive, so presumably they have made their processes efficient.
I was a bit lazy with my quote before. Stuff like watering down the shitty cider is clearly crap, but just because a brewery reuses certain materials that doesn't mean that the product will taste shit.

[TMR]

Ilkley do a lemongrass and ginger saison. The craft line is pretty blurred these days. When considering competitiveness of smaller breweries it is worth remembering that duty paid on beer is relative to production volume. Therefore smaller breweries can use more expensive ingredients without passing on that cost to customers/landlords.

When it comes to "craft" as a definition, i just find people use it as a shorthand to insult hipsters. If the beer is good, its good.

[Gritlad]

 The way macro and micro/craft breweries make beer is completely different along every step of the way even if the general processes are kept the same. E.g. Boiling wort and adding hops (whole or pellets) or adding CO2 hop extract (Generally used by larger breweries but is become more common place in "Craft" brewing as is it very efficient and serves a purpose.
 This could be likened to how the general steps to making coffee (instant vs artisan) are the same. Hot water+coffee (Beans/nespresso/instant)=coffee. But as most people know they taste completely different (worse/better is subjective and opinion obviously)
 Interestingly at the moment when the larger breweries e.g Ab in Bev breweries (not regional/traditional breweries e.g Fullers or Timmy T's) try to make a "craft" style, like an american style IPA, it often flops because it lacks flavor and isn't true to style. However despite a brewery like Sierra Nevada being huge (Brewdog in 2015 was still less than 7% the size of SN) they still produce exceptional and consistent beer.
 The term "Craft Beer" is largely without meaning (IMO) in the UK and despite it trying to be defined and also protected as a meaningful term, on the most part (maybe excluding London based breweries) it has lost its way. Everyone's opinion on what it means is somewhat different, should size matter? What about how the breweries start up costs were funded? Does everyone working there have to have a beard?
Ilkley brewery are a good example of both a "craft" and traditional brewery. They produce cask ales including many session strength pales and also a good bitter, however they also produce keg beer (fizzy beer) and also package some interesting/ "craft" beers into bottle and keg. E.g a white chocolate stout or a lemongrass and ginger saison! Very much "craft" beer styles.
 In my opinion Ilkley are a great modern brewery, they produce good traditional cask beer and good modern cask beer (Hopped up IPAs or full bodied stouts) and they also do good keg and bottled beers of various styles for most people's tastes.
 They don't call themselves craft or traditional and why bother? Nice beer and stylish branding sells beer.
Johnny Brown, just drink Timmy T's beers, they are great.
My 2p.

[shurt]

However despite a brewery like Sierra Nevada being huge (Brewdog in 2015 was still less than 7% the size of SN) they still produce exceptional and consistent beer.

For a large brewery I agree their beer is great. Although sometimes hard to get hold of, Torpedo is easily the best one they do. In a similar vein and percentage (both are over 7%) Yakima Valley made by Arbor Ales is just stunning. Arbor are another example of a good local brewery who started out doing real ales and have branched out into IPAs. They do both brilliantly with great variety.

[Offwidth]

The key to Brewdog's success is in their marketing and timing. They explicitly tell their customers that if they don't like the beer then its because they're Tennent's Super swilling idiots. They play up their disagreements with CAMRA because it makes them look edgy and anti-establishment.
This at a time when trendy urban bars are rammed to the rafters with bearded Nathan Barleys who would drink anti-freeze and muse about the quartzy aftertaste and undertones of slaw if they saw that cool guy with the rad beard doing likewise.

Personally, I do like the Punk IPA but find a lot of the other stuff, and in fact quite a few other over-hopped horrors from different breweries, to be utterly undrinkable.

It could be five years, it could be fifteen years, but the craft beer fashion will blow over and at that point Brewdog will have to change or shrink significantly.

[chris20]

Inbev do what is called "high gravity" brewing. To make the most of their tank size they brew a very strong beer and then water it down to the correct alcohol percentage, and then correct flavours with hop extracts and correct colour/malt character with malt extract.

Isn't this just at the extreme end of "blending" beer to get consistency and to hit the right alcohol percentage.  When I'm trying to hit a specific gravity I'll often add water or malt extract to make up for poor efficiency during mashing and correcting flavours after fermentation is in a similar vein to dry hopping.

Ilkley do a lemongrass and ginger saison. The craft line is pretty blurred these days. When considering competitiveness of smaller breweries it is worth remembering that duty paid on beer is relative to production volume. Therefore smaller breweries can use more expensive ingredients without passing on that cost to customers/landlords.

When it comes to "craft" as a definition, i just find people use it as a shorthand to insult hipsters. If the beer is good, its good.

My issue with it is there is nothing new about small breweries experimenting with different ingredients, they have always been called micro or nano breweries.  Craft isn't even a style, the Ilkley example is a saison, if you want to brew without hops and only herbs it's call gruit beer etc etc, it's just re branding beer to be cool and hip