[petejh]

It'd be interesting to get a real appreciation of the relative risks between few 'extreme' sport such as big mountain skiing, soloing, base-jumping, proximity wingsuit flying; and mainstream sport such as on-piste skiing, F1, Rugby, Horse-Riding.

Only possible by knowing number of participants and number killed/injured during the activity. My impression (likely to be wrong) of soloing is that there are relatively few participants and relatively high numbers of them die doing it.

[mindfull]

Have a look at how his mum thinks about this. She's quite mellow about it, tries to understand, and not worry too much about it, as she knows this is what he wants. If my mother only would be like this ...

[Doylo]

I think the level of seriousness  for mistakes is obvious. You can crash a F1 car at 150mph into a barrier and survive but if something significant goes wrong half way up El Cap there is only one outcome. The level of intense risk and concentration needed is gobsmacking.

[SA Chris]

It'd be interesting to get a real appreciation of the relative risks between few 'extreme' sport such as big mountain skiing, soloing, base-jumping, proximity wingsuit flying; and mainstream sport such as on-piste skiing, F1, Rugby, Horse-Riding.

Only possible by knowing number of participants and number killed/injured during the activity. My impression (likely to be wrong) of soloing is that there are relatively few participants and relatively high numbers of them die doing it.

There is an article about micromorts and measuring comparitive risk in "extreme" activities, but I don't think it went down to enough detail to include soloing.

[SA Chris]

One I was thinking of; only lists himalayan climbing and alpine mountaineering

http://utahavalanchecenter.org/blog-what-risk-riding-avalanche-terrain

[slackline]

Déjà vu.  This has all been done before when he wrote up his last "hardest free soloing ascent"   

I don't tell others what their acceptable level of risk should be, people are free to make their own decisions, and I really can't imagine that any soloist (Honnold, Bachar, Croft, Hershey, Long, Reardon etc.) didn't know the risk they were taking before they stepped off the ground (and very much doubt people posting on forums will change their choices).

[JamieG]

(and very much doubt people posting on forums will change their choices).

This isn't exactly helpful. I don't think I can (or even want to) change honnold's mind. It's just interesting to hear what other people think. It's an amazing achievement to solo routes like this, and understanding motivation, perception of risk etc. is worth discussing/contemplating. If not why did you even post the news?

[Johnny Brown]

One slip... and it's certain death

Not sure why folk suddenly turn into non-climbers when discussing this. There's an interview with Honnold somewhere (possibly the film) where he talks about all the things that people tell him could go wrong - a hold breaking, a wet section, a bird in a crack, a 'slip!!' etc - and how, one by one, they've all happened to him and weren't so bad. There is a fair margin for error or he wouldn't be doing it. He's generally well within his limits, and rarely does hard stuff on sight. Yes he his much better than you at this.

[slackline]

It's an amazing achievement to solo routes like this, and understanding motivation, perception of risk etc. is worth discussing/contemplating. If not why did you even post the news?

Because its interesting and impressive news and this particular sub-forum is for news

If you, or anyone else, want to have a debate about the ethics/morals of soloing then start a dedicated thread for it in either chuffing or shootin' the shit (and link back to this thread or the original news item if you want to have a story/event with which to begin the discussion).

[JamieG]

Thank you for posting the original link. It seems OTT to start a new thread to discuss this then link back. Almost every thread on this forum meanders around. I was just surprised you put a yawn smiley one page after you started the thread. Clearly plenty of people think this is worth discussing. Probably because there is no clear answers and quite a grey area.

[Bonjoy]

As if dangerous is good but only up to a point and beyond that it's bad.

surely that is the point?  Every time you do anything you make an assessment of the risks and he is willing to accept a level of risk which is pretty unimaginable to most people.  I doubt many people doubt he is a magnificent climber but magnificent or not all it will take is one bit of bad luck.

My point is that from a 'why take risks' point of view you can argue the toss either way for any level of risk. It's utterly a matter of personal choice. There is no absolutes when it comes to sensible levels of risk when the reason for taking the risk is simply for fun/fulfillment. People seem to be offended and made uncomfortable by Honnold's  climbing in a way they don't by other equally or more risk behaviors (many of which, such as the bad diet and no exercise, haven't a fraction of the upsides that AH presumably gets from soloing) . It makes no sense. 
The 'someone's got to clear up the mess' argument is pretty Daily Maillish if you ask me. Someone had to clear up the mess when a cyclist got knocked dead by a car outside my work last week, was the cyclist irresponsible because of this? How many cycle journeys to work is equal on the irresponsible scale to say 100m of soloing?

[Baron]

As a climber, I was surprised by my reaction to this being mainly 'selfish bastard':
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dont-look-down/4od

Being over 40 now (made it!) I guess the following must apply:

There are old climbers, there are bold climbers, but there are no old bold climbers
- Anonymous

[JamieG]

The 'someone's got to clear up the mess' argument is pretty Daily Maillish if you ask me.

  I didn't say some 'illegal immigrant who shouldn't be in the country anyway' will need to clean up the mess.

Although it probably isn't too far off a mexican cleaning up an americans mess. 

[Johnny Brown]

As a climber, I was surprised by my reaction to this being mainly 'selfish bastard

Yeah, interesting programme. My reaction was more that it's a shame he hasn't been introduced to rock climbing or something similar - the core motivation seems identical. There seemed a fairly low difficulty component so what they were doing was basically pushing boldness. The only difference with climbing is we have a big established culture which to some extent legitimises the risk taking, whilst providing a mentoring system advocating difficulty and safety over unnecessary danger.

[Stubbs]

Some words from the man himself, he makes the harder pitches sound like soloing somthing at Malham  http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/q-a-honnold-on-soloing-el-sendero-luminoso-5-12d

[Johnny Brown]

because it’s a giant slab you don’t really get pumped at all.

That was my first thought when I saw it too. And the rock looks to have that high friction crossly surface you get on good lime. So not so much like Malham!

[tim palmer]

My point is that from a 'why take risks' point of view you can argue the toss either way for any level of risk.

I agree to a point, but what he is doing is exquisitely dangerous just ask john bachar, jimmy jewel etc etc.

Obviously he can do what he wants to and I don't really care but in my opinion the risks that he chooses to expose himself to make no sense.

But I don't agree that the risks that honnold chooses to face are lower than those of a sedentary lifestyle and I am slightly uncomfortable with your assertion that an active lifestyle should be so much more fulfilling and worthwhile than a sedentary one just because it is the one you (and I) choose and are able to pursue.  As you said it is utterly a matter of personal choice.

[Baron]

Yeah, interesting programme. My reaction was more that it's a shame he hasn't been introduced to rock climbing or something similar - the core motivation seems identical. There seemed a fairly low difficulty component so what they were doing was basically pushing boldness. The only difference with climbing is we have a big established culture which to some extent legitimises the risk taking, whilst providing a mentoring system advocating difficulty and safety over unnecessary danger.

Well put sir.

[Bonjoy]

The risks of a sedentary lifestyle are many and varied, a good portion of westerners die of one or another of them. Our hospitals are choked with the results. The cause and effect is less obvious and more spread out in time than death by soloing.
OK soloing might kill you younger which brings you down to quality versus quantity which is the nub of the issue anyway. If Honnold feels so driven to do this then what sort of life will he have if he denies himself?

[tim palmer]

The risks of a sedentary lifestyle are many and varied, a good portion of westerners die of one or another of them. Our hospitals are choked with the results. The cause and effect is less obvious and more spread out in time than death by soloing.

I am perfectly aware of this, I see it every day at work but don't you realise that the two things are arguably two sides of the same coin?  Both extremes need to restrain themselves to improve their life expectancy and perhaps contribute to others

[slackline]

I was just surprised you put a yawn smiley one page after you started the thread.  Clearly plenty of people think this is worth discussing. Probably because there is no clear answers and quite a grey area.

Discussing whether its "right/wrong" to solo isn't why I posted the news though.  I've no objection to it being discussed but as with the previous thread the news is lost pretty quickly in the "is it acceptable risk" tangent.  There have been some interesting and thoughtful posts, and the discussion probably deserves its own thread.  I won't have much to contribute as my view is quite simple, we each have our own level of risk that we're happy to take (hence the yawn).  I'm sure there are things that you, and indeed all of us, have done/do that others would think are unacceptable.

Heres a link to an Alpinist interview which is an interesting insight to Alex's motivations for this route and how he prepared for it.  Some overlap with the Rock & Ice article Stubbs has linked.

The last morning before we left, I did a 14-pitch 5.10c. It took me 45 minutes to climb and another hour to down climb.

    Thats damn quick!

[Bonjoy]

Both extremes need to restrain themselves to improve their life expectancy and perhaps contribute to others

Why? Says who?

I'd have said that Honnold has already discharged his lifetime's responsibility to contribute to other's well being, except that I don't believe he has any such responsibility in the first place. He's given a lot more entertainment and inspiration to others than the vast majority of people I'd say.

[JamieG]

I'm sure there are things that you, and indeed all of us, have done/do that others would think are unacceptable.

Me! Never! I'm a bastion of good judgement . . . . .

Cheers for the link to the article in the Alpinist.

[tim palmer]

Why? says who?

you, because as you say

The risks of a sedentary lifestyle are many and varied, a good portion of westerners die of one or another

and

[\quote]

I'd have said that Honnold has already discharged his lifetime's responsibility to contribute to other's well being, except that I don't believe he has any such responsibility in the first place. He's given a lot more entertainment and inspiration to others than the vast majority of people I'd say.

[Bonjoy]

I am slightly uncomfortable with your assertion that an active lifestyle should be so much more fulfilling and worthwhile than a sedentary one just because it is the one you (and I) choose and are able to pursue. 

I didn't assert that. I said the upsides of the risky activity seemed to me self evidently greater for one than the other. As the thing's being compared were climbing some of the best routes on earth in a very exciting way versus eating haribos on the sofa I don't think I was going too far out on limb on that one. Could be wrong, could be a very comfy sofa and the guy/gal might really really like jelly sweets.
I didn't assert that a person who ate haribos on the sofa couldn't have a more fulfilling life than Alex Honnold. For all I know they could be a world class pigeon breeder and be the happiest guy on earth, I just think it's a safe bet that the happiness isn't largely related to the jellies and indolence.