[Zen]

After 4/5 months of wearing 5.10 Dragons I've finally started to develop some mild Achilles Tendonitis in my heels, mostly from the too-tight heel rands biting at an exact point on the back of my feet. This is a massive shame as up until now I was finding the shoes nigh on perfect but I can't continue to wear shoes that are potentially going to seriously injure my feet and affect my walking.

I've taken to stripping some rubber from the rear of the shoes and snipping cuts to take some pressure from the slingshot which has alleviated the issue somewhat but as I'm looking to buy new shoes in the coming months anyway, does anyone have any alternatives to wearing Dragons that would fit a little better in the heel department? I'm considering Solutions but as I don't know a store nearby that stocks them I can't try them on for size and don't fancy an endless 'return and resize' loop buying them online.

It's not very often you get requests for shoes with heels that don't stick to your foot so well... 

[andymarshll]

Especially when the shoes in question are dragons, what other shoes have you used up till getting them?

[Zen]

I used 5.10 Teams beforehand and those were my first shoes. To quickly summarise:

TEAMS:

Pros: Good sensitivity; fantastic toebox for my foot shape; perfect edging

Cons: Not quite enough support along the foot; very saggy heel pocket for my foot shape


DRAGONS:

Pros: All of the pros above but with the added bonus of a stiffer sole that offered more support, but not too much as too affect sensitivity; far better heel socket

Cons: That f*cking tight slingshot rand around the heel; I don't like lace-ups

So yeah, something very similar to Dragons but with a different or shallower heel would be perfect

[Paul B]

Scarpa instinct VS?

They're a lot more comfortable for me than dragons and the toe rubber is a bonus (what's even more of a bonus is that toe rubber is staying on).

Tonight I climbed in ~3 year old dragons that are ruined and they're still more uncomfortable than the above.

[moose]

Miura VS? Not quite as aggressive as Dragons but pretty toe-tastic, good heel and comfortable out of the box.

[Stubbs]

You got teams and then dragons as your first pairs of climbing shoes ever?!

[robertostallioni]

redonkulous.

[tomtom]

You got teams and then dragons as your first pairs of climbing shoes ever?!

Thats what I thought! Neither is the most foot friendly shoe to start out with! Dragons are great, but give me bad cramp if I wear them for more than 5 min at a time..

Different makes (not necessarily models) tend to give different fits etc. so try a couple of different brands from 5:10's. Or just buy some Anasazi velcro's like most people

[Zen]

Yeah I pushed the boat out when I bought my first shoes, I can't go back to flat climbing shoes now hahaha.

Also, I tried the Scarpa Instinct VS at my local gym shop and they were stiff as hell, I think I called them 'climbing clogs'! Do they soften up after a few sessions?

I'll try on some Miura VS when I can, alongside some other brands. I also tried some Mad Rock Sharks the other day which were a lot nicer along the heel than my Dragons but the toe box was uncomfortable and there was some sagging across the top of my toes. A lot of the shoes at my local shop are beginner's shoes so I find it pretty difficult to try on shoes I like.   

[tomtom]

Mad Rock.

Don't go there.

It should be rhyming slang..

[Paul B]

Yeah I pushed the boat out when I bought my first shoes

I can't go back to flat climbing shoes now hahaha.

Because down-toed boots are suitable for everything, right?

[krymson]

I've actually heard pretty good things about the shark

Because down-toed boots are suitable for everything, right?

Earlier this month I went to a slabfest of a crag bringing flat shoes thinking they would smear better, and my downturned just in case.Turns out the downturned shoes worked way better.

[Sasquatch]

Yeah I pushed the boat out when I bought my first shoes

I can't go back to flat climbing shoes now hahaha.

Because down-toed boots are suitable for everything, right?

 

[krymson]

Sasquatch, what kind of flat climbing shoes do you use and for what type of climbing?

[Fultonius]

Sasquatch, what kind of flat climbing shoes do you use and for what type of climbing?

Sorry if these sounds rude Krymson, but is your current goal not to climb 11?  (I presume this is AUS 11?)  You should be able to do that in a pair of house slippers!

.......

Zen, honestly, get yourself a pair of something more comfy.

For reference - I mainly use Scarpa Vapour Velcros for bouldering up to ~ 7A, sport up to Fr7b and trad climbing. Only when it starts to get really edgey do they fail me.

For edgey steep stuff 7A/7B I like Scarpa Stix, I've not climbed harder than that. For off-vertical edgey sport 7b-8a I used to love 5.10 Anasazi blancos but I found they softened too quick so no longer bother. I sometime use the tix but I'm thinking boostix might be my next choice as I don't fit la sportiva.

........

P.S. if you're one of those uber-wads who suddenly climbs 7B in less than a year, ignore all that and get something downturned...

[slackline]

The links I added to the wiki yesterday might be of interest.

[Evil]

You could have a go on the Blackwings. They are meant to be like a something between the Dragon and Team in fit. I find them very comfortable, nice and soft so they shape closely to the feet even though they are quite downturned. http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/five-ten-blackwing-review. To me they are a much more foot shaped shoe than the Dragons. I've never actually used Dragons as I don't really like pain in my feet (and they just look super painful) or lace up shoes, so I don't know how they compare, but would seem to be what you're looking for.

[Zen]

Because down-toed boots are suitable for everything, right?

I've never had issues with slab climbs, vertical walls or edging on downturned shoes. Understand, it's not just the 'downturned' aspect of such shoes that I find fit my feet better but also the global tendancy for such shoes to conform to my feet well, offer lots and lots of sensitivity and have a really well developed toe box. I'm not saying all of my shoes should be downturned because "I'm a f*cking beast and only climb roof problems over 8a" hahaha.

For reference, Dai Koyamada wears Mad Rock shoes and he actually is "a f*ucking beast climbing roof problems over 8a". Like I said they weren't too bad but have you/others had some issues with them, tomtom?

P.S. if you're one of those uber-wads who suddenly climbs 7B in less than a year, ignore all that and get something downturned...

Does 7B in just over 14 months count?

You could have a go on the Blackwings.

I'm still undecided about my fit for 5.10 shoes in general: perfect toeboxes but splodgy heels. Even though these are touted as being more 'lower-volume' in the heels than Dragons, I can't help but think that from looking at that picture it would just pull in on my Achilles but slightly lower down at the back of my foot, it's that steep incline back towards the ankle that's been causing me so much bother. Best place to find out is just to try them on myself, I suppose!

[Fultonius]

Does 7B in just over 14 months count?

Nope, that's 2 months out of the criteria, you slacker!   

Gear info requests are so much easier to answer when you know the level the other person is operating at. It's not like it could be considered egotistical on this forum to post your target grade range, because most of us are total punters compared to the wads. It just  makes life a bit easier, and helps stop people like me looking silly 

[SEDur]

Scarpa boostics all day long.
Closely followed by Anasazi v2s.

Also, there is no way in 14 months that your body has adapted enough to really handle hard crimping or the worlds softest down turned shoes, and the pressure they put through your feet and associated system.

As someone who climbed 7b in 20ish months, I understand the benefits of starting with a down-turned shoe early, but you will probably benefit from a stiffer shoe to aid your achilis tendons.

The problem is the support for your foot, or lack there of in these very soft climbing shoes. Your feet haven't adapted to the pressure you are putting them under, and now you will pay the price. A friend of mine had exactly the same issue, and after picking up some boostics, his feet improved dramatically. He used to have to tape his feet to try and solve the problem, but doesn't need to after buying stiffer shoes.

And if you have doubts about stiffer shoes like the boostic, people like Dave Macleod crush in them. Even Steve McClure climbs in V2s which are very stiff.
Don't shy away from helping your body adapt, or you will pay the price for doing too much too quick.

Dragons do not directly cause tendinitis.
Look at the wads who crush in them, and have been climbing for years.
Ask them what their first shoes were like, and how that affected their climbing.

Also, last time i checked, Dai Koyamada was sponsored by Evolv, and they were putting together his signature shoe.

[Paul B]

Understand, it's not just the 'downturned' aspect of such shoes that I find fit my feet better but also the global tendancy for such shoes to conform to my feet well, offer lots and lots of sensitivity and have a really well developed toe box. I'm not saying all of my shoes should be downturned because "I'm a f*cking beast and only climb roof problems over 8a" hahaha.

Without being rude, how would you know, you've owned Teams and Dragons? Go and buy a pair of moccasyms and then you'll truly understand 'sensitivity' and shoes that 'conform to your feet'.

Better yet, go to a reputable climbing independent and get them to help you choose a shoe. Failing that, just buy some Mago's, they'll fit like a glove I'm sure.

[krymson]

hmm well I actually meant I was leading 5.11s and projecting 12s, not 5.4s and 5.5s . Sorry for the grade confusion.

The Scarpa Vapour Vs that Fultonious is wearing are some of the most comfortable shoes I've tried on, and they are downturned to some degree without being extreme. They have a slingshot rand system which supports the downturn.
I've seen people climb hard sport and boulder in them so they're pretty versatile, and Fultonious' expereince seems to support that.

Of course, I'm just a 5.11 punter so if my word on downturn doesn't feel credible, Dumby Dave has talked about it as well.

[cheque]

Sorry if these sounds rude Krymson, but is your current goal not to climb 11?  (I presume this is AUS 11?)  You should be able to do that in a pair of house slippers!

hmm well I actually meant I was leading 5.11s and projecting 12s, not 5.4s and 5.5s . Sorry for the grade confusion.

  This is fucking hilarious. Wad point on the way when you break through that tricky 4a barrier Krymson! You've just got to believe you can do it! 

[krymson]

will keep you in the loop! 

[Sasquatch]

Sasquatch, what kind of flat climbing shoes do you use and for what type of climbing?

Current:
Solutions - 2 pair one warmup, and one project
Miura VS - Far better than the solutions for almost all routes, and for most edgy bouldering
Miura Lace - Face sport and trad shoe

Previous:
Anasazi pinks, Velcros - Pinks were best straight up edging face shoe I've worn, heel fit like shit though.
Red Chili voodoo - first downturn, loved them
Boreal Ace, Stinger, ...
Bunch of others that don't stick out in my head at all.

The issue comes down to learning the right techniques.  IMO, Having a downturned shoe makes it more difficult to learn to backstep and truly inside edge correctly.  They're designed to maximize engagement of the big toe in a pulling fashion.  They do help you learn to pull with your toes, but you have to learn to push first and I think flatter shoes are better for that.

I would recommend the following series of shoes for newer climbers who are really hoping to improve and push the grades.

First Shoe: Flat edging shoe in a comfortable size.  e.g. Miura, whites, etc. Tight, but comfortable. 
Second Shoe: Soft midcamber slipper.  Pythons, Teams, etc. Tighter than before, but not painful.
Third Shoe: Downturn Lace up.  Dragon, Testarossa, Instinct, etc. Total performance based.

Move on to next when you've worn one through and it's ready for a resole.  Keep them and send in for resole, but climb in the next.  By the time you've gone through these you generally know what style of climbing you like, and you can figure out which shoe works best for you(and you'll have been climbing for hopefully 1.5yrs at that point ).  Each shoe will help you learn different techniques, and force you to focus on different things.  As I said before, the stiffer shoe helps you learn to inside and outside edge well.  The softer shoe will force you to focus on that technique, otherwise you'll slip off. 

Oh yeah, let me know when you tick the 4a, I will definitely raise a toast in your honor

[Fultonius]

Sorry if these sounds rude Krymson, but is your current goal not to climb 11?  (I presume this is AUS 11?)  You should be able to do that in a pair of house slippers!

hmm well I actually meant I was leading 5.11s and projecting 12s, not 5.4s and 5.5s . Sorry for the grade confusion.

  This is fucking hilarious. Wad point on the way when you break through that tricky 4a barrier Krymson! You've just got to believe you can do it! 

Fucking grades