[Jaspersharpe]

whoops

Reinvestment doesn't affect profit or loss. Basic stuff.

You (all) should listen to FD on this as A. He's right, Amazon as it's currently run is a massive bubble. Great while it lasts but....  B. He does this shit for a living. And C. There shouldn't need to be a C.

You could have made a fortune investing in MySpace at the right time (not you Rupert).

[underground]

On the 'they don't pay any tax' issue - can someone who knows explain this - in terms of, are they doing whatever they do within the boundaries of whatever HMRC allows for companies operating in the UK? Same applies to all the other baddies like Starbucks - who pays more tax than they have to?

[tomtom]

Are you getting warmed up for the Friday night rant UG?

[Paul B]

The BBC Panorama episode or the Guardian article make for eye-opening viewing/reading about Amazon workers.

I've never liked it since it went from Amazon, to something with individual sellers as well.

[underground]

Are you getting warmed up for the Friday night rant UG?

I might have spunked up early on a discourscical analogy about bike wheel sizes and shaving 

If I'm still compus after another wee drappie of liqcour, I'll vent.... 

[SA Chris]

No shills on there whatsoever. No

[chris j]

Devil's advocate, but why? Why support my local bookstores when I can save loads of money buying the same books from Amazon? It's not like Amazon are selling an inferior product as in the case of local butcher/fishmonger's locally sourced meat versus supermarket mass-produced meat. It's an interesting debate - a buyer's market and we're being told we shouldn't partake and fill our boots.

I'm wondering whether I should put the NW lime guide on Amazon (if I ever finish it) or if I should boycott.

Well, as grumpy said above, if you buy through amazon then the author is probably only getting 30p or so royalty, which doesn't seem right. Presumably, if you sell  your NW guide through amazon that would massively reduce the profit per book to the bolt fund? Personally I think it would be better not to, it's a specialist book people will look for once they know it exists. Ironically I remember Alan of Rockfax making the same point a few years ago, that people should buy his new guide through normal retailers or his website as amazon basically paid them almost nothing per copy sold.

[finbarrr]

On the 'they don't pay any tax' issue - can someone who knows explain this - in terms of, are they doing whatever they do within the boundaries of whatever HMRC allows for companies operating in the UK? Same applies to all the other baddies like Starbucks - who pays more tax than they have to?

the problem is, companies (and people) that have lots of money use international constructions that small companies can't afford to use. these international constructions are legal, but are robbing nations of many hundreds of billions in taxes per year.
while at the same time giving them an unfair advantage over local companies.
this money ends up in tax havens like the Bermudas, while nations have to raise their taxes.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-2256860/Corporate-tax-avoidance-2013-following-Starbucks-scandal-paying-fair-dues.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement

having your money in Bermuda causes another luxury problem though:
http://9to5mac.com/2013/04/26/apples-stock-buyback-will-cut-its-tax-bill-by-more-than-the-cost-of-the-borrowing-aapl/

[grumpycrumpy]

I'm not sure of all the details and as he seemed so fed up I didn't want to push him ......

It is a damned good read though ......

And it's now out in paperback ....... Make a great stocking filler for the heavy metal fan in your life ..........

[Jaspersharpe]

You forgot to include the Amazon link.

[Fultonius]

On the 'they don't pay any tax' issue - can someone who knows explain this - in terms of, are they doing whatever they do within the boundaries of whatever HMRC allows for companies operating in the UK? Same applies to all the other baddies like Starbucks - who pays more tax than they have to?

Basically, Amazon UK is just a distribution company and, as such, they "sell" almost nothing in the UK. When you buy a book from Amazon UK, it is actually Amazon SARL Luxembourg that process the payments. Smaller companies cannot afford to do this type of tax dodge, so have to par tax on their profits and therefore cannot compete with Amazon.

I pretty much avoid Amazon now, unless it is the only place I can buy music or a book.

Put it another way, if Amazon routed all their sales through the UK, the tax bill would have been much, much bigger. According to http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/may/15/amazon-tax-bill-new-questions they declared sales of £320m for 2012 and paid on £3.2m in tax. However, they declared £4.2bn UK sales to investors. If you *very crudely* scale that up they should have paid £42m in tax, more than 10x what they actually paid.

[petejh]

I don't really believe anyone but the most zealous moralist is that keen to ensure that the retailer from which they buy stuff pays more tax to the UK than they're legally obliged to. It's the UK government's job to legislate commerce, not mine, and now that retailing has become borderless and there's no effective linked-up legislation we're in a period where we're being asked to search our consciences as a form of self-legislation, because the traditional means don't apply. Fuck 'em, the market is global now. It might sound good on here to say you don't agree with Amazon because they undercut and contribute to shutting down high-street stores but high-street stores have had their days and some stores are destined to disappear, while high-streets become more residential with limited selections of local stores; the old days of every town centre being full of busy profitable shops aren't ever coming back.
 Lots of people are obviously using Amazon and other online retailers despite them circumnavigating outdated business tax laws and I don't see that changing, except for even cheaper alternatives appearing. I'd say we're looking at a few major players like Amazon surviving while lots of minnows disappear, that's why Amazon are investing as much as they are to make sure they're left standing. There's a moral argument but the markets usually trump morals - ever gone to Belgium to buy cheap fags and booze and snuck a few too many packs and bottles back into blighty?
As far as guidebooks - the current system is daft and inefficient. It'll soon make sense to just sell direct via the web and use a distribution company like a mini, small-scale amazon.

As for the stock being a bubble like myspace, don't agree. Amazon have real assets - distribution centres, real products; and they actually sell physical products. Myspace sold an idea - advertising, on a social networking website. Facebook might be the next myspace. There's no comparison with Amazon except they're both on the web. But then the whole stock market is a bubble if you want to look at it pessimistically. And it won't take much of a price tweak on $47Bn turnover to make a lot of profit when you control the market.

[tomtom]

I can't find it - but think I've posted it here before... anyway,

I read an article WSJ? from an economist who suggested that Amazon was actually a plus for the consumer driven economy we have now - as its driven down prices gave people more money to spend on other things... ie allowed more consumption.

Not sure I agree (I loathe how our society is largely driven by consumption) - and I think Amazon should be more 'honest' about their UK tax context, but it was an interesting different angle. Sorry I tried to google it but it does exist!! honest!

[grumpycrumpy]

I really don't like the sound of the dystopian society which you seem to be predicting .......

So I shall continue to buy my music from Record Collector .....

My books from Bakewell for Books or Scarthins ......

And I'll continue to shop in Sheffield city centre in the same way that I've done for the past forty years or so .......

I may have to pay a little more, I may have to consume a little less, but I consider that  small beer compared to letting another important part of the community I live in fade and die ......   



 

[Falling Down]

Just for the record, I never described Amazon as a bubble.  It's just a very big, very successful company that's taking advantage of very generous investors cash to bulldoze through entire markets.  Only time will tell whether that's a 'good' thing or not.  The retailers I work with (John Lewis, M&S, ASOS, Argos, Homebase) are all terrified of them.

[Jaspersharpe]

Just for the record, I never described Amazon as a bubble.

No that was me, and I was hammered on red wine.....

[grumpycrumpy]

I know it's cockerknee rhyming slang, but isn't the term 'bubble' regarded as non-pc these days ....... ?

[andy popp]

I know it's cockerknee rhyming slang, but isn't the term 'bubble' regarded as non-pc these days ....... ?

Really? Maybe in other contexts but not in economics surely.  It's been the label of choice for periods of 'irrational exuberance' for three hundred years at least.

[shark]

I know it's cockerknee rhyming slang, but isn't the term 'bubble' regarded as non-pc these days ....... ?

Really? Maybe in other contexts but not in economics surely.  It's been the label of choice for periods of 'irrational exuberance' for three hundred years at least.

Yep, The South Sea Bubble. Even Issac Newton lost his shirt.   

[grumpycrumpy]

I know it's cockerknee rhyming slang, but isn't the term 'bubble' regarded as non-pc these days ....... ?

Really? Maybe in other contexts but not in economics surely.  It's been the label of choice for periods of 'irrational exuberance' for three hundred years at least.

Yep, The South Sea Bubble. Even Issac Newton lost his shirt.

Sorry ....... It was a very weak attempt at humour ........ 

[Dave Flanagan]

Well, as grumpy said above, if you buy through amazon then the author is probably only getting 30p or so royalty, which doesn't seem right.

My distributor stocks Amazon as well as normal retails shops. I get paid the same whether you buy a copy of my book from Amazon or from V12 or wherever. It's more than 30p - thanks god. I could sell directly on Amazon for marginally more profit. Obviously the most profitable sale for me is one direct from my website.

[Offwidth]

Devil's advocate, but why? Why support my local bookstores when I can save loads of money buying the same books from Amazon? It's not like Amazon are selling an inferior product as in the case of local butcher/fishmonger's locally sourced meat versus supermarket mass-produced meat. It's an interesting debate - a buyer's market and we're being told we shouldn't partake and fill our boots.

I'm wondering whether I should put the NW lime guide on Amazon (if I ever finish it) or if I should boycott.

I'm not suggesting a full boycott position but I think people should avoid using them for moral reasons if they have a choice. Firstly the company enjoy a monopoly like position and have exploited it ruthlessly (see links below), in their dealings with publishers, in e-books, union busting and general workforce exploitation, as well as the well know tax avoidance. Its all well and good saying governments should do something about tax etc but this is slow and difficult when dealing with huge US based global corporates and so in the meantime people can help too. The US used to break up companies when they became market dominant (remember Bell anyone) now they defend them. On the plus side bookshops and gear shops (that sell climbing books) will be greatly missed if they go: they provide the ability to look and see and feel and often a lot more besides, and people are paying not such a huge amount extra for that service.

Some other links explaining some very real issues with amazon:

http://againstamazon.tumblr.com

http://www.housmans.com/boycottamazon.php

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/currency/2013/11/amazons-unpopular-kindle-proposition.html

[Paul B]

On the plus side bookshops and gear shops (that sell climbing books) will be greatly missed if they go: they provide the ability to look and see and feel and often a lot more besides, and people are paying not such a huge amount extra for that service.

When things are cheap people simply don't give a stuff about the above. I've spent ages talking about cams (yes, yes I know) to a person that openly told me "thanks very much, that was helpful" swiftly followed by "he was going to go online and buy from a competitor" for cheaper.

When online retailers slashed the price of the Green Hornets you'd be amazed (or maybe not) how many people would openly ask to try them in store because they could buy them elsewhere for £45. These are instances where people have openly expressed their intentions, I have a strong belief that the actual number is much higher. Why not, could be one answer, I'm sure we're all guilty of doing such things with other retailers.

However, if you're hoping that the consumer will make the difference by making a moral choice then I'd say it's never going to happen, their hand must be firmly forced. People will only miss the convenience of shops when there's no longer a choice.

[Offwidth]

Well maybe I'm more optimistic about climbers and people in general. I know lots who will use such shops. I almost never leave a climbing shop that has given me useful advice without a purchase. I guess the question is are there enough people like me as independent climbing shops and bookshops do keep closing.

I also think on the other side of the argument there is a widespread ignorance about just how nasty Amazon have been in their dealings and I think more people would think twice if they knew the details.

[Falling Down]

I'd like to see some more aggressive questioning and actions by their institutional shareholders.

At last! http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/61ae309e-5af4-11e4-8625-00144feab7de.html#axzz3H3eRdnC1