[miso soup]

I spent a few years cycling around Sydney without ever wearing a helmet and until now didn't even know it was supposed to be compulsory, so it's obviously not a law that's ruthlessly enforced which would cast doubt on any statistics based on it.

[Lund]

I used to commute in London by both motorbike AND bicycle.  I gave up the former because it was too dangerous (got knocked off too many times).  Didn't enjoy it.

Push bike didn't feel safer.  It is, clearly, but it didn't feel it.

I also have to take issue with the politics here.  "Anti cycling mayor" is just ill informed, unjustified polical bullshit.  I mean, he brought in the boris bike (I think, or at least didn't can it), and he cycles everywhere!  Just because he can't spend millions on it or pedestrianise oxford street (note: they're not doing that at christmas this year as the businesses don't want it).

There has to be some balance, in people's reactions, in the media, and everything: there isn't.  Cycling is dangerous, but part of that is unavoidable risk and users need to decide if they can accept it.  And stop doing daft things like cycling up the inside of everything from a smart car to an artic.

Also, unless you've been on the A3 between oval and elephant, you've not seen anything.  Standards of cyclist behaviour, and how difficult it is to drive in a cycling dense environment where they overtake each other and perform crazy manouevres has to be seen to be believed.  I'm surprised there aren't more dead.

[cowboyhat]

I really rate those Leyzne micro drive lights Tom mentioned, amazing. I'm charging them at my desk right now, someone else is paying for the power.

Mudguards are essential.

Use quieter roads if possible rather than the more obvious main thoroughfare with a bus lane. Be confident, stand your ground.

Cycling to work is cheaper, quicker and might keep you fit too. (Within my current situation), I wouldn't get to work work by any other means.

As a vulnerable road user it is your responsibility to not put yourself in a situation that could be more dangerous, ie, where a lorry driver on the phone not using his mirrors could knock you off.

[galpinos]

he brought in the boris bike (I think, or at least didn't can it

It was Red Ken's policy so "didn't can it" is right. They should be called Kencycles really......

[i.munro]

I "didn't can it" is right.

He did however

cancel the London Cycle Network,
abolish the western extension to the CC (which was to have funded cycling infrastructure) encouraging  more cars
freeze cost of remaining CC (ditto)
drastically cut back cycle infrastructure spending
initiate a program of removing  pedestrian crossings & re-phasing lights to try & increase traffic speeds
cancel planned expansion of bus lanes
introduce motorbikes in bus lanes trial (& then ignore results)
…. Oh I'm bored now

note that this is contrasted with Ken's plans (hardly mister cycle himself)

[Lund]

I "didn't can it" is right.

He did however

... stuff ...

That's probably because there is more to life than cycling, and there has to be some balance.  You win some, you lose others.

[fatdoc]

its a thread about cycle commuting, with salient points thereof... of course there is more to life... but c'mon.. this isn't farcebook.. its an informed discussion / debate with posts trying to be evidence based / supported.. its a forum.

[Zods Beard]

Well I'm still alive so screw the stats!

Had my 1st shouty moment at a taxi driver today, feel like a pro.

Good tips Cowboy hat, I genuinely think car drivers make better cyclists. When I was a Driving Instructor I used to get loads of cyclists saying they ccouldn't believe how dangerous they used to be.

One question, how long will the god damn saddle soreness last?

[fatdoc]

about 10 days mate...

[Ti_pin_man]

One question, how long will the god damn saddle soreness last?

You are wearing padded shorts right?  I used to find that when I had a break from riding it only took a few days and then I was back in the saddle    If you werent a regular rider then a couple of weeks should have you sorted and actually a couple of days off at the weekend may help.

[Zods Beard]

Er, no padded shorts! I think I will invest in some...

[SA Chris]

Buy them basic to fit under anything. And get a few cheaper pairs rather than one expensive so you can always go clean and dry. Decathlon is your friend.

[jfw]

ok just read about headphones and then didn't read all the rest of the thread 

but I personally just don't wear them for commuting in a city - to me my ears are like wing mirrors in a car. You can hear if a bus or lorry is coming up behind you, you can here if the car behind you is slowing down (are they going to turn left into you?), it seems just stupid to omit that info - it's another little piece of awareness of what's going on around you - why wouldn't you use it (in what can be quite a hostile environment).

I don't think anyone should be blamed for not wearing a helmet or for choosing to wear headphones. I personally think a cultural and legal shift is required in this country where it isn't just seen as understandable that you didn't see someone. I think proper prosecution of drivers who hit cyclists would do a lot more than a few segregated bike lanes.

[Johnny Brown]

You can hear if a bus or lorry is coming up behind you, you can here if the car behind you is slowing down (are they going to turn left into you?),

I've only ever worn earphones a couple of times on the bike, but I could still hear stuff like this fine. I didn't have them at nosebleed volume though obviously.

[Lund]

I personally think a cultural and legal shift is required in this country where it isn't just seen as understandable that you didn't see someone. I think proper prosecution of drivers who hit cyclists would do a lot more than a few segregated bike lanes.

You should watch this for a proper explanation of what the problem is.  It's quite frightening.



How to solve it?  Road design, so that users are kept segregated, and cyclists can't go up the inside thinking they can be seen when they can't, for example.

There are plenty of instances where drivers aren't punished enough - e.g. car driver tweeting about hitting a cyclist who didn't pay their road tax - but in the london commuting safety case, it's not so much about blaming individuals.

It's not good enough to say "well, it's just the cyclists fault".  Because although it sometimes is, the price they pay is too high.

[slackline]

There isn't a great deal a cyclist can do if a driver decides to turn left without noticing the cyclist in front of them, regardless of whether the cyclist can hear them or not.  Nor do I see any benefit to knowing there are lorries/buses/vehicles in general approaching.

What are the possible scenarios...

1) Look over your shoulder at vehicles approaching from behind.  This takes the attention off of the road in front and can often have a destabilising effect both of which carry risks which are exacerbated if there is a vehicle approaching (e.g. wobble or hit a pot-hole that throws you further into the "line of fire"). 

2) Slow down/stop when vehicles approach but this would defeat the objective of cycling in the first place as you'd be relegated to walking.

3) ?

[slackline]

Motorists lose badge of superiority to cyclists

[Ti_pin_man]

its wrong to speculate on why cyclists have died specifically as none of us were there to see what happened BUT the responsibility IMHO is on all sides. 

The road designers: need to design sensibly, I dont believe full segregation is the answer, when designers segregate it usually leads to conflicts with pedestrians (who usually begin to use the bike lanes as footpaths) and arguments with car drivers who think its mandatory bikes should be in the bike lane.

Drivers: to check as much as possible when they turn left nobody is there.  Clearly the video shows how tricky this is for them, they need both the technology to assist and also the barriers on vehicles to block bikes getting pulled under wheels.  I personally would like to see in London a rush hour ban on large vehicles, HGV's and the likes.

Bike riders:  as a bike rider myself I agree with car drivers that we have a responsibility to try and avoid ending up in a road position where we arent seen.  The rule I apply is not to filter inside a lorry/buss/hgv at lights unless I know the light sequence well enough to know I have time to get well in front of the said vehicle where the driver can see me.  I have on two occasions shouted warnings to other cyclist to stop them undertaking as a bus/lorry turned and on one occasion grabbed the silly man by the shoulder and stopped him as the bus cut the corner off across the in place bike lane.

As for tax discs, glad they're going, but I suspect it wont change the impression soem drivers have that they are still in some way paying a road tax for use of the road versus bikes they wrongly think dont.  But glad its gone.


p.s. hows the commute going?   

[SA Chris]

How to solve it? 

Well based on that clip, better mirrors for lorries? Can't be that hard to fit one.

[Johnny Brown]

Exactly. Or just adjust the lower one. Or, even simpler, check the mirrors BEFORE starting to turn.

[slackline]

Could use technology and have little cameras fitted to show whats down the side of lorries, just like the ones that some cars have for reversing.

[tomtom]

Could use technology and have little cameras fitted to show whats down the side of lorries, just like the ones that some cars have for reversing.

I believe that in Londinium for the construction trucks they are trying to get some sort of beeper/siren/"look out" alert fitted where it is set off every time a truck turns left.

Personally I think the sensible thing is to have a curfew time on large trucks (>7.5 tonnes).. And if that makes building in London too expensive - well other parts of the UK (plc) do exist...

[slackline]

Or, even simpler, check the mirrors BEFORE starting to turn.

Don't tell me you're supposed to check mirrors before turning, next you'll be telling me people are supposed to actually use indicators just after checking their mirrors to let others know of their intention.

[Bubba]

Well based on that clip, better mirrors for lorries? Can't be that hard to fit one.

I have seen an example of some more advanced lorry mirrors that give a wider angle view (can't find the link atm) but it's not as simple as bolting a huge bank of mirrors on the side of a lorry in order to see cyclists because that just creates another huge blind spot for the driver behind the mirrors. 
Some units I've driven are bad enough already on this front - I've nearly t-boned a car when turning right out of a junction because the car approaching from the left was completely hidden by the blindspot behind the large mirrors in a DAF XF that I'd not driven before.  It was almost identical to the example of the "invisible cyclists" in the video above but with a different blind spot.

Exactly. Or just adjust the lower one.

Not sure what you mean? The lower mirror is a wide-angle mirror that is used to supplement the main mirror in order to spot hazards outside the limits of that mirror.  Again, this is a compromise - on the one hand it's there to see objects close to the lorry but it's also to see objects far away, for example when changing lanes on a motorway it may help the driver spot a vehicle two lanes away that the main mirrors don't really "see" and prevent a side-swipe.

Or, even simpler, check the mirrors BEFORE starting to turn.

There's still a significant blind-spot that cyclists can dissapear into even when the unit and trailer are in a straight line before starting a turn.  In a busy city environment the driver could be sat at the lights waiting for them to change.  In the time that it takes for him to watch the lights turn from red to yellow to green and then for him to check his right hand mirrors and then his left, it's entirely possible for a cyclist to have slipped unnoticed into a blind spot to the left of the lorry.  The cyclist may assume that the driver has seen them but he may be completely unaware.

I'm not just trying to blindly defend the lorry driver here - I'm a cyclist of many years but also happen to drive artics for a living at the moment (for my sins).  Whilst many people have first hand knowledge of cycling on city streets, far fewer know what it's like to drive an LGV in the same environment.  Whilst there are some undoubtedly careless, stupid lorry drivers, the majority of drivers (even those who see cyclists as a pain in the arse and an inconvenience) will go out of their way not to endanger them.

Could use technology and have little cameras fitted to show whats down the side of lorries, just like the ones that some cars have for reversing.

I think this would be a great solution. Two little screens inside the cab could offer a clean view down each side of the lorry. A driver would soon get into the habit of checking each screen before moving just as they would do their mirrors.  Such camera systems already exist but I've only ever seen video from them after an accident has taken place rather than them being used as a precautionary measure.

I believe that in Londinium for the construction trucks they are trying to get some sort of beeper/siren/"look out" alert fitted where it is set off every time a truck turns left.

I think this system has a lot of potential: Cycle Alert  but it relies upon ALL cyclists and all LGVs having it fitted - see some of the reservations raised here.

Personally I think the sensible thing is to have a curfew time on large trucks (>7.5 tonnes).. And if that makes building in London too expensive - well other parts of the UK (plc) do exist...

Whilst a rush hour curfew on LGVs is nice PR from Boris and kind of makes sense in theory, how on earth would this be implemented?  What do all those lorries that are near the curfew zone at 10 to 4 (or whatever) do?  Park up? Where?  Chaos ensues.  I just can't see it working in reality.

Personally as a cyclist I steer well clear of large vehicles. I would never filter up beside anything larger than a car.  I think education of both cyclists and lorry drivers might help but really infrastructure needs to change - I'd like to see more proper cycle lanes in place that actually protect cyclists and are more than just a 3ft wide token gesture painted on at the side of busy streets. 

I like this a lot.

[Lund]

Great post Bubba.