[quejada]

A question for those of you who do (or have done) weight lifting etc..  as part of your training: I find myself with 55 minutes lunch breaks and I was wondering what's the best way to use them. There's a gym 200 mt from where I work, so I was playing with the idea of going there, maybe 2-3 times a week during my lunch breaks to do some weight training, on top of the 2 evenings at the local bouldering wall. Somebody 'experienced' bouldering and weight training told me 45 min sessions are way too short, therefore useless or even potentially dangerous for my joints and muscles, so I was wondering what you  think about that, considering also that right now money for me is a bit of an issue, so I'd really hate to waste them on something not worth it, and that I might instead go for a run during those breaks, and shave off some weight...
any input is really appreciated
g

[Muesli]

Hi Quejada,


It will probably depend on your current strength/weight situation. I am by no means an expert but I have been in the same situation this year. For me  coming back to the game after a few years and carrying a bit of extra weight the lunch time general aerobic sessions (running or on the rowing machine) were good. Bringing my weight down got at the strength to weight ration from the other side and had other benefits as well both physical and psychological.


I would say if you have a bit of weight to loose target that first. If you are regularly up at the wall your strength will be building anyway.


Good luck
Peter

[krymson]

Somebody 'experienced' bouldering and weight training told me 45 min sessions are way too short, therefore useless or even potentially dangerous for my joints and muscles, so I was wondering what you  think about tha

Bulshit bullshit bullshit.

HIT is what you want.  It's been demonstrated that as long as intensity is pretty high and form is good, one or two sets has almost as much effect as doing 3-5 sets.

You also want to focus on compound exercises rather than isolations which will take more time.

I've been into and out of weight training for years but through it all I've maintained my strength just through once weekly sessions of 45 minutes. For building up strength 2 or 3 times a week would be better.

The key with weight training isnt' about going hard or long in any single session but stimulating your body consistently. Form also matters a lot so if its your first time try to get advice from other gym goers, videos or friends.  They can also help you structure your workouts so you're using your time more effectively.

[abarro81]

I'm not convinced about the wisdom of weightlifting when you'll be climbing later that day (perhaps unless you're just doing aerocap/ARC), and not convinced that you want to be weightlifting on rest days. If I were going to lift weights it would be at the end of a strength session, after I was done with any high-intensity climbing I was going to do. Or at the start of a block of training as a conditioning thing.

[Nibile]

Power is power. Go to the gym, it's worth the effort, the time and the money.
If you haven't lifted in a while, take two or three weeks to slowly get to your desired sessions, the ones you'll be doing later on.
You could start with three sets of 12 moves in the first week, then 3/8, then 3/6, then you should be ready to go heavy.
This is just an example.
You could dedicate one session to big compound excercises (deadlift or squat, overhead press, snatch pull) and one to climbing specific ones (pull ups, front levers, basic pulling excercises).
Also: 55 mins is not much. Prepare a good, effective and quick warm up routine to save time. One or two excercises well performed are a lot better than 6 different ones badly done. Otherwise you can do them in a circuit, hitting different body parts so there's some recovery between same sets; this is also very good to shave weight as it's a little more cardio and produces a higher post effort consumption.
Eat well.
Good luck.

[abarro81]

Go to the gym, it's worth the effort, the time and the money.

For most climbers, with limits on their time and money, I disagree almost entirely.

quejada: is there no way you can get your boss to agree to shorten your lunch break by 30mins and then leave work 30mins early, thus giving more time at the wall and arriving when the wall is less busy? Also training a 3rd night of the week is likely to be more useful that going to the gym IMO. One other option would be to spend lunch time stretching too.

[ianv]

Weights are well worth doing but if they are specifically for climbing, I would lay off the lifting and stick to climbing specific exercises; Powerpulls, pulldowns, locks, rows etc. You have plenty of time in 45 mins to trash yourself, maybe do pyramids so that you integrate the warmup into your session.

Maybe do the antagonistic muscles during the middle session.

[Eddies]

I'm not convinced about the wisdom of weightlifting when you'll be climbing later that day (perhaps unless you're just doing aerocap/ARC), and not convinced that you want to be weightlifting on rest days. If I were going to lift weights it would be at the end of a strength session, after I was done with any high-intensity climbing I was going to do. Or at the start of a block of training as a conditioning thing.

I agree with Abarro.
If youre going to do power or strength or power training in the evening, be it bouldering or weights then you should avoid strength / power training in the daytime.
Youd be better off doing cardio / aerocap / ARC / yoga in the daytime then strength / power / power endurace in the evening.

[Nibile]

Hmm...
Where did he say that he's going to lift and climb on same days?
I read it like this: I can lift 2 or 3 times a weeks, and keep the two - different - evenings in the gym.
Oh well...
 

[abarro81]

I agree with Abarro.
If youre going to do power or strength or power training in the evening, be it bouldering or weights then you should avoid strength / power training in the daytime.
Youd be better off doing cardio / aerocap / ARC / yoga in the daytime then strength / power / power endurace in the evening.

Ironically, I don't agree with you!

If I were going to do both, I would do strength in the daytime and enduro in the evening (highest intensity work comes first). My opinion was more based on the principle of doing more simple exercises after complex ones, i.e. climbing comes first, any weight lifting work (or pullups, core, pressups, deadhangs etc) comes second. I.e. the better option, if feasible, would be to leave work 30min early, do your session, then do your 30min basic strength work at the end of the session (or at least after bouldering, before any ARC). If I were intent on training during the day too I guess I'd think about making that evening session something basic - e.g. hangs.

Personally I wouldn't be able to climb 5 days per week and weightlift the other 2 without my climbing sessions suffering, anyone who can is a beast! If you're climbing less than 5 days per week then more climbing would probably be better than more weights.

Just my opinion obviously.

[Eddies]

I read the 'on top of' as meaning 'on the same day as', and assumed his evening were full of training hence why he wants to up the training to lunch breaks also. My bad if I assumed incorrectly.

Dave MacLeod's book recommends the high intesity work should come in the evening on a double training day. Thats where I got that beta from.

[quejada]

wow guys, as usual this place is a goldminefor tips and suggestion... and as usual, different people have different view on the subject, which is totally fine, but leaves me even more puzzled...

my idea was to go to the wall, say, tue+thu, and do something at lunchbreak on mon+wed, then going bouldering at the weekend (if it ever stops raining).

But I just finished reading the super-long thread on Eva Lopez training system, and that gave me another idea, i.e. going home for a 30 min session on my fingerboard during luch time.
in my opinion that would be

1) cheaper than going to the gym
2) easier to squeeze in a 45 min break
3) possibly less dangerous (I'm already well aquainted to fingerboards)
4) more effective, it being more climbing-related ???

I know some would say 'get some more time off and try doing both, gym and fingerboard, they're both important' which I agree with, but really my time is already so thinly stratched, and I have to pick the best option. I have to choose between weight training and fingerboard for those 45 min/twice or three time a week.
 
So now I'm seriously considering the idea of that weighted hangs suggested in Lopez's program... I won't ask what people think about that since it's been thoroughly discussed somewhere else in this forum. But I'm going to ask one more (perhaps stupid) question: following on what some people were suggesting, would it be better to do this fingerboard session on the same day of the wall session, or on the rest days from the wall? Obviously doing a super hard fingerboard session and then, few hours later, going to the bouldering wall seems utterly insane, but at the same time doing the fingerboard on my rest days from the wall doesn't seem to sensible either.

thanks again for all the inputs
g

[Muesli]

question: following on what some people were suggesting, would it be better to do this fingerboard session on the same day of the wall session, or on the rest days from the wall?
g

Try them both and see which works best for you. But remember to reap the maximum reward you will need to build in some recovery time as well.

[Paul B]

The other possibility might be to do the weights session in the morning to maximize time between your split sessions (if they were on the same day).

I kind of agree with abarro but if you're busy (i.e. Nibs and) as the OP suggests then you can't always have the ideal order (or frequency, or duration etc.).

[tomtom]

Not really to do with weights - but I sometimes only have 40-50 min for a lunchtime bouldering session and I often feel like its doing quite alot! I (obviously) cut down on rest times between problems but certainly feel like I've had a decent work out...

[ianv]

Weights are a really useful addition to anyone's training IMO

BITD there was pretty long periods when I couldn't climb much/at all during the week (no walls/shit crags/too cold) I was pretty much forced into gym and finger board workouts and each time this led to pretty significant gains. It even felt worthwhile when I lived in Aix en Provence and could climb all the time.

I definitely think that 2 sessions a week of climbing specific weight training would be beneficial (and give better results than a 45min bouldering session) and you might still have time for the fingerboard in the evening.

[Paul B]

I definitely think that 2 sessions a week of climbing specific weight training would be beneficial (and give better results than a 45min bouldering session) and you might still have time for the fingerboard in the evening.

If I had to pick between the two (and it sounds like the OP does) then I reckon finger-boarding is without doubt the way to go. As to which days and what time of day these fit in, read through the Barrows logic.

Personally I'd never consider deadhanging on a 'rest' or 'off' day, it's far too intense and is one of the few things that makes my forearms really sore.

[i.munro]

I used to do a lunchtime weights sesh then boulder in the evening & this seemed to work better than doing them on consecutive days.
However  the evening sesh was on vertical or mildly overhanging crimpy territory & therefore very finger focussed & arm/shoulder  strength has always been a weakness for me.

[Rocksteady]

I think it depends what sort of weights sessions.

Heavy weights sessions on the same or supporting muscles as you use on a hard climbing session will not equate to much of a rest day. Probably sustainable for a short period then you will need some rest.

Lighter weights antagonists sessions in shoulders and core might be a good use of time to proof you against injury, burn calories and not affect your climbing sessions.

Deadhanging is like a short intense climbing workout. Might work if paired with easy volume sessions on your climbing days.

[Paul B]

Lighter weights antagonists sessions in shoulders and core might be a good use of time to proof you against injury, burn calories and not affect your climbing sessions.

Serpico posted regarding this a while ago, thinking of antagonist and protagonist muscles isn't ideal as many work as stabilisers etc. during fundamental climbing moves.

[mrjonathanr]

as long as intensity is pretty high

I've not read that anywhere. HIT is full on, intensity needs to be extremely high to be considered HIT.

That said pretty high is better than laid back, for sure.

[douglas]

45 minutes is about right for a quality deadlift session and some bench thrown in at the end maybe one armers, power cleans, overhead press etc. It's worth the money, no doubt. I'd do something like this, deadlifts 10 reps at 60kg. 10 at 80kg. 5 at 100kg. 5 at 110kg. 5 at 120kg, 5 at 130kg, 5 at 135kg, 4 more sets of 5 reps at 135kg. Just an example. 2 minutes rest between sets. For bench do something similar. I was training similar to that 3 times a week plus 3 fingerboard sessions a week plus 2 rock sessions a week and off the back of that for a good fraction of a year climbed several personal ambitions of mine - it worked.

[krymson]

as long as intensity is pretty high

I've not read that anywhere. HIT is full on, intensity needs to be extremely high to be considered HIT.

That said pretty high is better than laid back, for sure.

I was thinking about this thread at the gym yesterday while doing my usual 45 minute session and realized part of the reason im able to do so much in 30-45 minutes is that i took a weight training class a while ago and learned about intensities, reps, form, etc.

Whereas if you were starting from not knowing that and dont have someone to guide you, 45 minutes in a weight room would be decidedly less effective.

I still think weights are a great thing to do for anybody but for pure climbing gains obviously something more climbing-specific done in that time will be more effective.

plyometrics/bar work is another idea which would be very effective in the time frame and more directly impact climbing without the learning curve of free weights.

[Gus]

The only good thing about this thread is thinking of how fucking funny it would be seeing barrows doing weights!!!

Pahhaaaaaa!!

[Paul B]

The only good thing about this thread is thinking of how fucking funny it would be seeing barrows doing weights!!!

Pahhaaaaaa!!

as funny as introducing himself with a "Yo yo"?

[Gus]

maybe......

[abarro81]

Look bitches, I'm one ghetto mutha fucka and I could out bench both of you put together. I'm like a white fiddy cent.

[TobyD]

I definitely think that 2 sessions a week of climbing specific weight training would be beneficial (and give better results than a 45min bouldering session) and you might still have time for the fingerboard in the evening.

If I had to pick between the two (and it sounds like the OP does) then I reckon finger-boarding is without doubt the way to go.
Personally I'd never consider deadhanging on a 'rest' or 'off' day, it's far too intense and is one of the few things that makes my forearms really sore.

Quite right. Deadhanging  is definitely in no way shape or form restful.

You can never have strong enough fingers, and specificity is hugely important. If you have any limits on time  - as Barrows said more or less - climb.

[Lund]

A question for those of you who do (or have done) weight lifting etc..  as part of your training: I find myself with 55 minutes lunch breaks and I was wondering what's the best way to use them. There's a gym 200 mt from where I work, so I was playing with the idea of going there, maybe 2-3 times a week during my lunch breaks to do some weight training, on top of the 2 evenings at the local bouldering wall. Somebody 'experienced' bouldering and weight training told me 45 min sessions are way too short, therefore useless or even potentially dangerous for my joints and muscles, so I was wondering what you  think about that, considering also that right now money for me is a bit of an issue, so I'd really hate to waste them on something not worth it, and that I might instead go for a run during those breaks, and shave off some weight...
any input is really appreciated
g

The problem you've got is that you've asked a generic question about generic exercises on a forum with contrasting and variable opinions, ignorance and arrogance.  So you're going to get contrasting advice. :-)

The usual and balanced advice is that if you climb below, say, V5, and are male, then climbing and losing weight if you're fat are the two things to consider.  Ignore all else.  This advice ignores the fact that you might have an hour to spare at lunchtime, can can you do anything with it though?  Well, apart from cardio to lose weight (if you are a fatty).  Or the fact that you might just like weight training.  Or you might be Mark Twight (the classic riposte to anyone who says, just climb to train to climb, blah blah)

If you're climbing above V5, then train your weaknesses, and no amount of generic advice without knowing those will help.

Being a girl, IMHO is the exception to the above: girls seem to plateau at V4 because they can't do any pullups.  They need to address that weakness earlier, again just my fuckin' opinion alright.

So all that blah blah aside, can you do anything useful during your 55 minutes?  Of course.

I would suggest
- fat finger rolls, wrist curls
- bicep curls
- deadlifts
- deadlifts
- deadlifts
- deadlifts
- core exercises

Only other advice, is to ignore the bench press and the squat machine unless your general fitness/strength is shit.  You're not trying to get buff.  It enrages me to see grown men preening over their fucking breasts in a climbing gym.  It's just vanity ballast, for crying out loud.

Oh, and slow and steady progression and PERFECT FORM AT ALL TIMES on your deadlifts.

End opinion!

[account_inactive]

Bench presses are great for shoulders and are often the missing link to being able to do a on armer. Go figure

[TobyD]

If you're climbing above V5, then train your weaknesses, and no amount of generic advice without knowing those will help.

Being a girl, IMHO is the exception to the above: girls seem to plateau at V4 because they can't do any pullups.  They need to address that weakness earlier, again just my fuckin' opinion alright.

End opinion!

I can't do pull ups (well no more than 6 anyway) and have climbed font 7c. I probably could do with some weights eh.

[tomtom]

Me too (<10 pull ups and 7C - just!) tbh I can't remember the last
time I did more than three in a row...

[Lund]

If you're climbing above V5, then train your weaknesses, and no amount of generic advice without knowing those will help.

Being a girl, IMHO is the exception to the above: girls seem to plateau at V4 because they can't do any pullups.  They need to address that weakness earlier, again just my fuckin' opinion alright.

End opinion!

I can't do pull ups (well no more than 6 anyway) and have climbed font 7c. I probably could do with some weights eh.

What fucking part of "any" do you not understand, 7c wad man?

I don't give a shit how hard you punter along. Doesn't mean you know anything.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

[Gus]

Good advice to definitely avoid bench presses etc. I'd also recommend maximum whining sooner or later when your weak shoulders give in and you can't climb for months.

[ianv]

I can't do pull ups (well no more than 6 anyway) and have climbed font 7c. I probably could do with some weights eh.

Me too (<10 pull ups and 7C - just!) tbh I can't remember the last time I did more than three in a row...

But what sort of 7c (slab or big burly one), how long did it take and how much time do you have to climb?

Having a stronger upper body could: make more stuff accessible and faster and possibly even open up the next grade. Don't dismiss it till you have tried it. The question was, "how do I make the best use of limited time?" and for this weights are good.

[tomtom]

I can't do pull ups (well no more than 6 anyway) and have climbed font 7c. I probably could do with some weights eh.

Me too (<10 pull ups and 7C - just!) tbh I can't remember the last time I did more than three in a row...

But what sort of 7c (slab or big burly one), how long did it take and how much time do you have to climb?

Having a stronger upper body could: make more stuff accessible and faster and possibly even open up the next grade. Don't dismiss it till you have tried it. The question was, "how do I make the best use of limited time?" and for this weights are good.

Burly - and it took me aaages

I dislike Gyms and weights even more - but I gladly accept that it would help my climbing if I did some weights.. (and its probably a great use of a short time to get a work out etc..). My response was probably OT - and more towards the comment about women plateau-ing due to not being able to do any pull ups - which seems a bit of an odd thing to say... I think being able to do a pull up (or how many you can do) is not necessarily a good indicator of how hard you can climb. Rambling explanation over

[Lund]

I can't do pull ups (well no more than 6 anyway) and have climbed font 7c. I probably could do with some weights eh.

Me too (<10 pull ups and 7C - just!) tbh I can't remember the last time I did more than three in a row...

But what sort of 7c (slab or big burly one), how long did it take and how much time do you have to climb?

Having a stronger upper body could: make more stuff accessible and faster and possibly even open up the next grade. Don't dismiss it till you have tried it. The question was, "how do I make the best use of limited time?" and for this weights are good.

Burly - and it took me aaages

I dislike Gyms and weights even more - but I gladly accept that it would help my climbing if I did some weights.. (and its probably a great use of a short time to get a work out etc..). My response was probably OT - and more towards the comment about women plateau-ing due to not being able to do any pull ups - which seems a bit of an odd thing to say... I think being able to do a pull up (or how many you can do) is not necessarily a good indicator of how hard you can climb. Rambling explanation over

Soz folks, was very grumpy yesterday due to lack of sleep.  Newborn baby just arrived home etc.

Point number 1 is that 7c on its own just doesn't qualify you to be a coach.  I hope anyone with any brains accepts this.  In fact, I would say coaching link is although not orthogonal to climbing skill - there's clearly a dependency - you don't need to be brilliant to coach brilliantly.  Other sports are full of examples like this (notably football).  There's no reason to think that climbing gets some kind of special ticket.

Point 2: I said *ANY* pullups, and didn't say all.  If I were to put more flesh on it, I would have put

* women often lack upper body strength from day 1: classic novice behaviour for men is to pull hard and fail; for women who cannot pull so hard it is to use flexibility and technique - and indeed this means that lots of novice women are much better than novice men

* this greater technique and flex allows women to progress more quickly.  Human nature means that they will gravitate towards the slabs, vertical techyness etc. and avoid their weak spots = overhanging, burly terrain

* Most women are shorter.  They can't lank like some 7c merchants who can only do a few pullups.  To get big moves done they often need to either use fuckloads of technique and flex (typical on slabs), or lots of dynamic power (overhangs)

* Thus, women often get to a point where they are a bit scared of overhanging terrain, because they are relatively shit at it.  They need to learn some new technique on it as well as getting strong, and weights and other strength exercises supplement and accelerate that process.

* However, not addressing the gaping hole in their climbing portfolio often leads to plateauing.  At about V4, in my experience.

Anyone got anything constructive to say about that?

P.S. Benching for shoulder stability, fine, but just do pressups.  No climber needs to bench their own body weight unless they want to pull with the beauty of their breasts.

[i.munro]

P.S. Benching for shoulder stability, fine, but just do pressups.  No climber needs to bench their own body weight unless they want to pull with the beauty of their breasts.

My understanding (& bear in mind I may have garbled what I was told by a physio) is that typically climbers have overdeveloped, short pecs & underdeveloped serratus anterior.
Therefore what she advised me to do is work on the serratus. This is involved in a bench press if you have good posture & technique but most don't.  If you don't then a press/push up  will simply make the situation worse as you will make the pecs even stronger in relation to the poor serratus.


further strengthen the pecs.

[TobyD]

What fucking part of "any" do you not understand, 7c wad man?

I don't give a shit how hard you punter along. Doesn't mean you know anything.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

charmed i'm sure. i was merely trying to make the point that your grade boundaries for suitability of various styles of training may vary wildly between people. perhaps i should have just said that. i don't give a shit how hard i punter along either really.

clearly coaches don't need to be adepts, and i am neither, however i do have a working knowledge of exercise physiology, go climbing a lot and interested in training.  i was merely contributing in the same way that you were.

[krymson]

i thought she made a pretty valid point
there is a huge difference between no pullups and 6 pullups.

I'm a dude(as if it wasn't obvious) and last week I tried coaching a very light, lanky girl with pretty decent finger strength and strength to weight ratio on an overhanging  V2

I thought i had been doing the problem as efficiently and "weakly" as possible, but when I saw her on(or maybe i should say off it!) it, I realized I had been using significant core strength, shoulder strength, and lock off power that she absolutely did not have.

[Motown]

Make use of what you have got is surely key. (Perhaps foolishly) recently moved to country with only two bits of rock in it so have adapted a gym routine to reflect this, but hopefully will sustain some level of climbing fitness for holidays.

The best climb able rock is underground and dirty so footwork has decreased in importance... So, use gym to work on pull up strength with maximum pull ups using different grips, followed by lat pull downs of over body-weight, followed by single armed lat pull downs at maximum weight. I would like to build up to a one armed pull up and am certainly increasing in strength.

Finger strength has been kept with using only rock available although fingerboard is due to arrive any day.

On other days I do circuits which blast legs, chest, shoulders and heart which has kept me trim (ish)

The result - I can feel the increased strength in my (limited) climbing but need more work on fingers to maintain climbing level.

IMHO your gym time would be best used on pull ups that increase in intensity, but would be best with something like rock rings that could develop finger strength.

Unless your a porker, then Get on a tread mill.

[quejada]

I suppose the bottomline is that different routines/training systems suit different climbers. I'm afraid that going to the weight room would probably feel too strong a commitment in terms of money, effort and learning curve (never properly done it before), whereas fingerboard, I know it quite well and I'm sure I can get more satisfaction out of it in 45 min...(hopefully).
we'll see....