[Fultonius]

Some insight once again please, wads and beasts.

On Sunday, I went to Ratho for my first routing session in a few months. All I have been doing is AeroCap, Ancap and Bouldering/fingerboard & core (roughly as per recommendations above).

[indoor grades caveat]

I managed to flash a ~25m Fr7a and ~25m Fr7a+ and in total we did 8 routes, 6a, 6c, 6c, 7a, 7a+, 7a+ (fail), 6b+, 6b+ so ~ 200m of climbing. Which is in line with the best I've done in there and outside (one F7b onsight, a few 7a+).

On the whole the moves felt easy and I didn't get ballooning-forearm-pump (even on the steep, juggy, sustained 7a) but I was feeling almost tight/painful powered out feeling in my forearms - like they weren't able to deal with the repeated force.

Anyway, as a general gauge of how things are going, is it safe to say that this regime is working? Considering I have been doing no routing whatsoever but am maintaining performance on sustained, long routes - makes me feel positive that some good gains could be made in the spring when I switch up to doing some AnPow / AeroPow and getting out on some projects?? 

[siderunner]

Maybe the slower climbing of onsighting was a bit diffferent from the training laps which would more likely be at RP pace (since on well-known ground)?

[Tommy]

Pretty much your single question to yourself should be - "could I have previously" -

Flashed a ~25m Fr7a and ~25m Fr7a+ and in total we did 8 routes, 6a, 6c, 6c, 7a, 7a+, 7a+ (fail), 6b+, 6b+ so ~ 200m of climbing

If it's an improvement from you would have done before at that volume and intensity then the simple answer is yes! :-)

Sounds like you've done a great job with your training.

[Fultonius]

Pretty much your single question to yourself should be - "could I have previously" -

Yes, I probably could - but not if the run-up consisted of 2 months without touching a route. Normally if I boulder exclusively I feel terrible on routes for a the first few sessions. This time I felt like the moves were all easy and my endurance wasn't as bad as I thought it might be.

If I had sent the last 2 months mainly climbing routes I think my routing would be as good if not better than it is, but I wouldn't have made the strength gains. Hard to gauge though. That's the difficulty I find with not regularly "testing" my level but focussing on making gains in other areas - it's hard to know if it's working!

[petejh]

Neither wad nor beast, but I'd say that's why keeping training records for each sesh is so important for giving the confidence that the training is (or isn't) working. Whether it's strength benchmarks on the fb, power benchmarks on bouldering or campusing, or benchmarks for any of the fitness's. Seeing progress or plateauing against weekly, monthly and yearly benchmarks is the only way of objectively knowing what's going on when you're away from routes for a long time.

Also, to keep myself from worrying about losing fitness while focusing on strength/power I keep in mind the overly simplistic concept that strength comes slowly and fitness comes back quickly - at least for the typically most useful kinds of route fitness for me (short-average length sport or trad). So I don't worry that I won't be 'route fit' until shortly before needing to be. As long as strength/power are good I know I can tune up the fitness when required.
Obv it's more nuanced than that, as the capacities/powers model suggests. And fitness for 50 metre endurance 8s isn't something I know (or care) about - I suspect that takes longer to train.

Anyway it's all moot if you're injured. 

[Yossarian]

Resurrecting this thread because there’s a lot of interesting stuff here.

After a relatively successful few months of focusing on strength, I’ve got a lot of syke for routes now and have been trawling through loads of the good knowledge and suggestions on here (and other threads) about endurance training.

I’ve been experimenting with various AeroCap periods, circuits on various angles, foot on campusing, etc in order to figure out a plan.

I have a great circuit board available with a decent spread of grades. Getting to wall with routes / autobelays is a bit of a trek and only feasible every 2-3 weeks. So, what I’m wondering about is the (possible) value of incorporating redpointing the harder circuits, especially because the technique aspect (and smaller holds / not really steep) is something I think I definitely need to work on, and also mirrors the kind of sport routes I’ve been trying recently.

Assuming it is a good idea, what is the best approach? It seems to me that (on fairly sustained circuits at least) it’s the boundary of AeroPow and AnCap. And, as AnCap is a longer term process, it would be better to pick harder things that I can only climb sections of, rather than doing nearly complete easier circuits leaving me totally pumped.

Any suggestions?

[Paul B]

I thought that broken circuits / redpointing falls within AnPow (and thus would be of use/focus during a peak phase)?

I may have this wrong but an off the cuff summary would be:

Regen/ARC is very easy with relatively large blocks of time on the wall (auto-belays would be useful)
Aerocap, foot on campussing, 1 min on 1 off, blocks of 10 or so, a couple of sets perhaps?
Ancap, 12-15 moves (1:2-4; work: rest). I've done this on the campus boards, long boulder problems and more recently, half a hard 30mv circuit.
Aero-pow circuits consist of ~30mv circuits, 8-12 reps and a similar work:rest ratio.
An-pow broken circuits/redpointing (trying to gradually increase the length of links being made). 5-7 moves, less rest than work.

Interestingly An-Pow is omitted from the Lattice app.

[user deactivated]

Yossarian, i’d recommend cashing out on a Ouija board to commune with the ghost of Alan fucking Turing to help decode that bollocks. 

[abarro81]

An cap, An pow and Aero pow should all teach you to climb well when fatigued (each in subtly different ways) if that's what you mean about technique?

With respect to things that don't "fit" a category, I often do that kind of stuff just before a trip to replicate route climbing a bit more.

Paul - I think Tom doesn't really like An Pow except for boulder competition climbers; that said, some of their An Cap sessions come quite close to what I think of as An Pow (though maybe only the ones in the premium plans rather than the lite - I'm not sure whats where). I like An Pow because I feel like it makes me good at that short resistance style... and makes me stronger.

Dan - I presume that's some kind of irony, given your posting style.

[Yossarian]

Alex - re technique - yes, partly that (making progress with varying amounts / type of fatigue) but also because the circuit board angle and general hold type seems to have more in common with the routes I'm aiming for outside. As opposed to sifting through blobs and volumes on the main wall, etc.

Apart from a few volume sessions last year, I've basically never done any structured endurance training before. The modest amount of progress I made during my previous sport climbing season (2002-2003, just before I fell out of a window) was powered (according to a dog-eared old logbook) by some gritstone bouldering and soloing at Harrisons. As such, I am supersyked about the prospect of climbing lots of things until my phone beeps, wearing sweatbands, etc.

Someone should do a foot-on-campusing version of Zwift. Where you can watch yourself as Ethan Hunt campusing up and down that thing in the film.

Dan - I fucking love the jargon...

[Stu Littlefair]

It sounds useful at some point in your plan, but if you’ve just finished doing strength you could probably make use of a base phase (aerocap/ancap) first, which would mean full laps of the easier circuits with less rest.

Redpointing the harder circuits will be more suited to a peak phase (aeropow), which should come just before you intend to go forth and crush.

[user deactivated]

It will be interesting to see what happens to this in the next 20 years. I’ve yet to bump into a climber who’s actually climbed harder through energy systems programs. Another mass delusion on a grander scale than Almscliff

[joel182]

It will be interesting to see what happens to this in the next 20 years. I’ve yet to bump into a climber who’s actually climbed harder through energy systems programs. Another mass delusion on a grander scale than Almscliff

Haven't the two posters above you climbed 9th grade routes through energy systems programs?

[Yossarian]

It sounds useful at some point in your plan, but if you’ve just finished doing strength you could probably make use of a base phase (aerocap/ancap) first, which would mean full laps of the easier circuits with less rest.

That’s what I was doing today, give or take. Good - so I will put this idea on hold for the time being, and revisit in a month or two.

[user deactivated]

Hey, just a personal observation Joel. I’m sure neither Stu nor Alex would take it as a criticism. Plenty of 9th grade climbers out there not on a program.

[Ged]

That doesn't really say anything about 9th grade climbers who are on a program though

[slab_happy]

IAnother mass delusion on a grander scale than Almscliff

... Almscliff is a mass delusion? I think I've missed something here.

[user deactivated]

‘On a program’

[jwi]

It will be interesting to see what happens to this in the next 20 years. I’ve yet to bump into a climber who’s actually climbed harder through energy systems programs. Another mass delusion on a grander scale than Almscliff

I'm not sure I understand the critique. No one ever got close to their potential at any physical activity without variation of load, so that cannot be your critique. Is it your opinion that the metabolisms is a particularly bad paradigm to plan variation around compared to other paradigms? Or is it that preplanned variation is a delusion?

Also, does Almscliffe have a grand scale?

[Stu Littlefair]

It looms large in Dan’s head, at least.

Dan - I know you’ve posted about how you didn’t like your training program and I think you let that colour your perception of how it might work for others.

It does take a certain amount of wilful blindness to respond to two posters who have jumped about two grades, and at least one of whom has climbed with you, by saying “I’ve yet to bump into a climber who’s actually climbed harder through energy systems programs”.

[Yossarian]

Setting this methodological dissonance to one side for the time being...

The immediate thing I’ve noticed is a lack of ZAP on the following session of strength / power problems after a session of circuit lapping / foot-on-campus - with a rest day in between. I guess this is probably to be expected at this stage, and also probably indicates that making sure I’m doing a decent amount of lower intensity AeroCap is something to work on too...

[user deactivated]

Hey up Stu, of course you are right. I consider myself duly spanked 

I shall return to the relative obscurity of lurker and keep my nonsense to my self. Unfortunately born of a constant urge to buck the trend.

Hopefully see you again at some point! Hope you’re well 😊

Ps I quite enjoyed the training, I just got worse at climbing. By approximately 2 grades.

[user deactivated]

Ps; I’ll take the double punter Duma, if just for the BMC communist joke

[Yossarian]

Dan

I would be interested to hear what you think didn’t work / what you didn’t get on with your program.

Personally, what I liked about doing structured endurance training for cycling was that the results were positive / easy to quantify / and (over the duration involved - a couple of years) pretty much continuous (though obvs at a reduced rate over time).

However, I can see how, particularly with climbers who have progressed through the grades on talent / movement / mental game, etc might find that a load of regimented activities that feel quite unlike what you actually want to do or enjoy doing present a challenge in terms of how prepared you are to dedicate yourself to them.

My own concern is that I end up getting really fit, go on a trip with overambitious expectations and then climb like a total punter. But, unlike when I was younger, i’m now more interested in laying some groundwork rather than turning up in Spain and getting lucky on some routes that happen to suit me...

[user deactivated]

You pretty much said it Yossarian, apart from talent. I can’t own up to that bit. And I did stick 100% to ‘the program’ which took a bit of deprogramming but once it was out the system things got on track.