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Natural Talent (Read 23520 times)

flyguy

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#75 Re: Natural Talent
September 21, 2013, 12:37:47 pm
Those golfers may have spent 10000 hours on a golf course or at the driving range but walking round a course hitting the odd shot taking about 4 hours having a stroll doesn't really constitute as focused training but will rack up the hours, i reckon if they had the feedback and focused training of Tiger woods they would be in single digits, its not just quantity but quality as well. i have just read Bounce by Matthew Syed, really good interesting read on the topic. apologies if this has already been brought up earlier in the thread.

Jaspersharpe

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#76 Re: Natural Talent
September 21, 2013, 02:04:25 pm
No but it's referrred to in that article I linked to on cricinfo.

flyguy

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#77 Re: Natural Talent
September 21, 2013, 03:08:19 pm
just read that now good article cheers

nai

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#78 Re: Natural Talent
September 21, 2013, 03:34:54 pm
Malcolm Gladwell refers to it as "Purposeful Practice" in Outliers and in that article he emphasises that you need "Innate Talent" plus hard work, social factors and a dose of good fortune, seems people had been jumping on the 10,000 hours thing as meaning anyone could become a world-beater at anything.  Basically, what gme said.

petejh

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#79 Re: Natural Talent
September 21, 2013, 06:37:18 pm
 :agree:  According to the original researcher, Dr Anders Ericsson, the ten thousand hours of practice which those in the group of highest-achievers had gone through was actually 10000 hrs of what he calls 'Deliberate Practice'. Deliberate Practice is carried out in solitude and is focused on self-identifying any weaknesses in the skill-set and focusing on working to correct those weaknesses, and it's self-motivated not coach-led. It was this characteristic which separated the very best group from the expert group in Ericsson's study, with the best having double the logged hours of solitary 'Deliberate Practice' compared with the 'expert' group.

Not 10000hrs of just doing an activity, or lower quality 'mileage' (i.e. playing golf with mates/ lighthearted bouldering with mates) or being coached. That's all on top of the 10000hrs solitary practice.

I suppose in climbing it's hard for deliberate practice to be truly solitary if you aspire to lead routes, but if you've got willing trustworthy belayers it's essentially a solitary practice once you step off the ground.

seankenny

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#80 Re: Natural Talent
September 22, 2013, 08:55:26 am
:agree:  According to the original researcher, Dr Anders Ericsson, the ten thousand hours of practice which those in the group of highest-achievers had gone through was actually 10000 hrs of what he calls 'Deliberate Practice'. Deliberate Practice is carried out in solitude and is focused on self-identifying any weaknesses in the skill-set and focusing on working to correct those weaknesses, and it's self-motivated not coach-led.

So the question for us punters is, what does deliberate practice in climbing look like?

petejh

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#81 Re: Natural Talent
September 22, 2013, 11:57:46 am
Section on deliberate practice from wikipedia:
Quote
Deliberate practice

Psychologist K. Anders Ericsson, a professor of Psychology at Florida State University, has been a pioneer in researching deliberate practice and what it means. According to Ericsson:

"People believe that because expert performance is qualitatively different from normal performance the expert performer must be endowed with characteristics qualitatively different from those of normal adults." "We agree that expert performance is qualitatively different from normal performance and even that expert performers have characteristics and abilities that are qualitatively different from or at least outside the range of those of normal adults. However, we deny that these differences are immutable, that is, due to innate talent. Only a few exceptions, most notably height, are genetically prescribed. Instead, we argue that the differences between expert performers and normal adults reflect a life-long period of deliberate effort to improve performance in a specific domain."[3]

One of Ericsson's core findings is that how expert one becomes at a skill has more to do with how one practices than with merely performing a skill a large number of times. An expert breaks down the skills that are required to be expert and focuses on improving those skill chunks during practice or day-to-day activities, often paired with immediate coaching feedback. Another important feature of deliberate practice lies in continually practising a skill at more challenging levels with the intention of mastering it.[4] Deliberate practice is also discussed in the books, "Talent is Overrated," by Geoff Colvin,[5] and "The Talent Code," by Daniel Coyle,[6] among others.

Two recent articles in Current Directions in Psychological Science criticize deliberate practice and argue that, while it is necessary for reaching high levels of performance, it is not sufficient, with other factors such as talent being important as well.[7][8]
Behavioral versus cognitive theories of deliberate practice

Behavioral theory would argue that deliberate practice is facilitated by feedback from an expert that allows for successful approximation of the target performance. Feedback from an expert allows the learner to minimize errors and frustration that results from trial-and-error attempts. Behavioral theory does not require delivery of rewards for accurate performance; the expert feedback in combination with the accurate performance serve as the consequences that establish and maintain the new performance.

In cognitive theory, excellent performance results from practising complex tasks that produce errors. Such errors provide the learner with rich feedback that results in scaffolding for future performance. Cognitive theory explains how a learner can become an expert (or someone who has mastered a domain).[9]
Deliberate practice in medical education

Duvivier et al. reconstructed the concept of deliberate practice into practical principles to describe the process as it relates to clinical skill acquisition. They defined deliberate practice as:

    repetitive performance of intended cognitive or psychomotor skills.
    rigorous skills assessment
    specific information feedback
    better skills performance[10]

They further described the personal skills learners need to exhibit at various stages of skill development in order to be successful in developing their clinical skills. This includes:

    planning (organize work in a structured way).
    concentration/dedication (higher attention span)
    repetition/revision (strong tendency to practice)
    study style/self reflection (tendency to self-regulate learning)[10]

While the study only included medical students, the authors found that repetitious practice may only help the novice learner (year 1) because as expertise is developed, the learner must focus and plan their learning around specific deficiencies. Curriculum must be designed to develop students' ability to plan their learning as they progress in their careers.

Finally, the findings in the study also have implications for developing self-regulated behaviors in students. Initially, a medical student may need focused feedback from instructors, however as they progress they must develop the ability to self-assess.


And Ericsson's original study on Deliberate Practice, here: http://projects.ict.usc.edu/itw/gel/EricssonDeliberatePracticePR93.pdf


I'd imagine what deliberate practice in climbing looks like is what Ondra, Sharma, McClure, Patxi, Megos et al's private, away from the public eye, routine looks like - especially the routine they had when they were teenagers developing their skills.

mrjonathanr

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#82 Re: Natural Talent
September 22, 2013, 06:57:18 pm
This isn't really revolutionary is it? Jerry in Tom's Roof, Malc in his attic- obsessional devotees where the activity is so engrossing it supersedes - even at times precludes- the need for a social context.

Anyone who takes literally the idea that any Joe with 10,000 enthusiastic hours spare will become world class is clearly indulging in wish -fulfillment and equally clearly, has never really tried. 

petejh

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#83 Re: Natural Talent
September 22, 2013, 07:59:32 pm
The idea isn't revolutionary to me, but perhaps it would be to someone who truly believes that genetics are the be all and end all and that if you're one of the 'genetically chosen ones' all you need do is go climbing, let the genes do their thing and kick ass. It's also interesting to anyone who aspires to be better than they are and who secretly wonders if they have 'it' - it being the quite nerdish desire to dedicate vast numbers of hours in your own company perfecting the various areas of your own climbing. This reminds me of the story told by one of Andy Pollitt's teachers about how, soon after being introduced to climbing in Prestatyn high school, Pollitt would spend endless hours by himself climbing around the school squash court climbing wall practicing movement skills and building 'belays' and teaching himself rope-work.

The idea of solitary dedicated practice also does raise the question of whether there's an ideal personality type for becoming a 'master' at climbing (or anything). It's been suggested (by Susan Cain in her book 'Quiet') that the introverted personality type is the one most attracted to the sort of solitary dedicated practice required to become a master in a field (not just become 'expert').

mrjonathanr

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#84 Re: Natural Talent
September 22, 2013, 09:23:35 pm
Can't disagree with that. Devotion implies exclusion of other things after all.

 

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