[Franco]

 



I remember a very young Franco banging on about how unethical head pointing was and that onsite was the way forwards. That stopped when he realised he'd have to head point things to get stuff done that was hard for him.

That hasn't really changed. I still haven't headpointed an established route yet and have a crack ground up at any new routes that look sub E8.

[slackline]

 I remember a very young Franco banging on about how unethical head pointing was and that onsite was the way forwards. That stopped when he realised he'd have to head point things to get stuff done that was hard for him.

That hasn't really changed. I still haven't headpointed an established route yet and have a crack ground up at any new routes that look sub E8.

Nice arbitrary lines you've drawn for yourself there.

[Franco]

Quite a blunt comment there old boy. You could try and be a little more friendly maybe? This is climbing we're talking about, not a job interview. And aye, It's actually a little more vague than that. If something looks like it could be E8 and has no gear then I inspect. E8 is the current onsight max, If no one headpointed new lines above E7 then there would no way that people could get better at onsighting and thus climb harder than E7 - a Teufelskreis. 

[galpinos]

Nice arbitrary lines you've drawn for yourself there.

In Franco's defense (I phrase I never thought I'd type....) aren't all our style rules somewhat arbitary? I know mine are.

For example, I want to climb Archangel and wouldn't use pads, but would on other equally hard/classic/highball routes just "because".

I'd say Franco's line is a pretty good one.

[slackline]

I too remember your rants on UKC about how unethical headpointing is/was and how on-sight/ground-up was the only true way etc. etc.

Climbing is about the onsight. If people don't think an E7 onsight is more amazing than an E11 RP then something needs to be done.

If you still think headpointing is unethical (as you suggest in the opening sentence of your response to Moo) then its unethical, regardless of what others do or have done and where your climbing is in relation to that.

Perhaps you've mellowed to a more pragmatic approach, but you are contradicting yourself if you maintain a stance that headpointing is unethical.....unless you think its ok to do so under (arbitrary) conditions you choose for yourself because for someone else that threshold might be E5/6 boundary and who are you to tell them that just because its below the current onsight max of E8 that they shouldn't take a headpoint approach?

Personally I don't care, each to their own as long as they are honest about their style of ascent, but you were being inconsistent.

P.S. - Well done on your ascent.

In Franco's defense (I phrase I never thought I'd type....) aren't all our style rules somewhat arbitary? I know mine are.

Yes and that is my point.

[Muenchener]

I really don't see how having a different opinion about something now than one had in 2008 is "being inconsistent". You haven't changed your mind about anything in the last five years?

Especially if the said opinion holder was very young five years ago (unlike me).

[slackline]

I really don't see how having a different opinion about something now than one had in 2008 is "being inconsistent".

The opinion hasn't changed...

That hasn't really changed.

...and its the original opinion which is inconsistent (i.e. "Headpointing is only ok if it meets these conditions I've chosen").

If instead of saying it is "unethical" the wording were changed to be along the lines of "on-sight/ground-up being an improvement in style" I'd have no problem, but ethics are down to individuals (although societies/groups will often agree on many things), and it is neither Franco, nor anyone else's place to dictate to others that they are being "unethical" in headpointing should they choose that approach, as long as they are honest about the way in which they climbed it.

[petejh]

I remember a very young Franco banging on about how unethical head pointing was and that onsite was the way forwards. That stopped when he realised he'd have to head point things to get stuff done that was hard for him.

That hasn't really changed. I still haven't headpointed an established route yet and have a crack ground up at any new routes that look sub E8.

Or, in plain English, you've yet to ground up any routes harder than E6 and you headpoint any routes that turn out to be E7 or harder. Which is fine and dandy by me and pretty much everyone else. Except that your actions don't lend any extra credibility to your opinions on climbing style over those of the multitude of other E6 onsighters out there. You seem a bit of a squeaky wheel in need of regular oiling.

[cowboyhat]

What a load of drivel.

[Lund]

Quite a blunt comment there old boy. You could try and be a little more friendly maybe? This is climbing we're talking about, not a job interview. And aye, It's actually a little more vague than that. If something looks like it could be E8 and has no gear then I inspect. E8 is the current onsight max, If no one headpointed new lines above E7 then there would no way that people could get better at onsighting and thus climb harder than E7 - a Teufelskreis.

soz but what?

you're saying that you can't get better at onsighting unless you headpoint?

don't get that.

redpointing and headpointing and shit will get you strong, of course

climbing a load of routes under the grade to form a pyramid of experience, fitness, blah blah will get you good too

but how does headpointing E9 get you ready for an E8 onsight, exactly, in a way that the others methods won't do better?  except that it'll make the E8 feel a bit easier and give you some confidence

your vicious circle only seems like it is such because you're begging the question.

oh and if you want people to be friendly, be careful how you come across.  "old boy"?  put your one direction cd back on loop little boy. (see? )

[dave]

Why is everyone "hatin' on the geez"? I read the above to mean he's only really headpointing new routes, which is fair enough, as with new routes you don;'t even know if they're possible.

He's also saying if people didn't headpoint hard new routes then these routes wouldn't exist for anyone to aspire to onsight/GU.

[Will Hunt]

LOG
 

[Doylo]

Why is everyone "hatin' on the geez"? I read the above to mean he's only really headpointing new routes, which is fair enough, as with new routes you don;'t even know if they're possible.

He's also saying if people didn't headpoint hard new routes then these routes wouldn't exist for anyone to aspire to onsight/GU.

Dave who said 'hatin on the geez ' again? i've forgotten

[Richie Crouch]

Beastiooooooo!

[fried]

Someone with no wheels, no deals and no cheese. I imagine.

[Doylo]

Beastiooooooo!

Oh yeah, hoppo. That was quality

[rginns]

there's a lot of codshite on this thread, who gives a crap about inconsistencies 5 bloody years ago. I say good effort, it looks like a good hard route. climbing's whatever you want it to be, as long as you don't lie.

[Franco]

I don't really get what you're all on about.

First off, This is about style, not ethics. Second, I'm not really telling anyone what to do, I'm just saying what I think is a good approach that leads to what I consider good style. 5 years ago I might have said headpointers should be shot or whatever - i don't think that now and it was (probably) meant as a joke. (That quote someone ran out above doesn't suggest I think headpointing is unethical by the way)

For those who didn't understand what I wrote before, the 'E8 barrier' is not a new invention of mine to suit my limit. It was something I had when I onsighted E4/5 and was trying the Hypocrisy of Moose. It's about NEW routes. Ideally I'd like to try everything ground up, but in an area with nothing above E6 this means new routes need putting up. the onsight limit has remained pretty level over the last 30 years, despite a lot of headpointing going on, if new routes had to be climbed ground up, then we wouldn't know what grades they were prior to setting off and hence, they wouldn't be climbed. I might still headpoint a line to repeat it, I haven't really decided yet. I'm still pretty young and I'm not sure how important the style in which we climb is.

If the chap above was saying I haven't new routed without top rope inspection above E6, then that's incorrect. I put up a new E7 'Stuck In The Sky'  the other week flash.