[nik at work]

Fuck CAC, what about all this MOON shit that gets rammed down my throat every fucking time I go out climbing. I'm sure Lund is equally fucked off with all the PRANA crap at his local yoga class and Fiend must constantly fight back the rage while queing in his local McDonalds at the sight of all those people wearing clothes, fuckers, why are we obliged to wear clothes? Hey, WHY THE FUCK SHOULD WE!! I AM SO FUCKING ANGRY...

Luckily I have bigger things to worry about, like whether I need a shit or will just a piss suffice?

Jasper you blood-sucking daywalker how dare you not wear a poppy, you cunt.

I think maybe just a piss...

[Fiend]

Must admit I have a bit of a problem with statements like:

If you don’t know about CAC then I am disappointed in you! Go find out and buy yourself a t-shirt. If you do know about CAC and you don’t own a t-shirt then you should do something about that!

I don't. I skimmed past that - en route to trying to get a larger picture of the women's podium trio to open - and it barely registered, I know what CAC is and if I didn't a 3 letter acronym is easy enough for me to remember if I wanted to find out. This is what I don't get, people talking about something that is so easily ignorable as if it is a really offensive means, I dunno like saying something wants to make you vomit or telling someone to get fucked. If it's not interesting then just let it wash over you....surely...

Edit: I realise that I have posted far too much on something that doesn't interest me, bleh. Sorry I am not a charity evangelist, just anti pointless hostility when there are so many more interesting things to rant about.

[petejh]

Lund - you say you're bored of 'it', bored of what - logos everywhere?  If anything I'd say seeing a bunch of climbers standing on a podium or whatever wearing CAC tees is a very welcome change from seeing those same climbers wearing what they normally wear in virtually every single photo ever aired of them in public - their sponsors' logos. Now that is something I do feel is rammed down the throats of all of us - companies pushing their brand and climbers desperate to push their name; via often unremarkable/sometimes remarkable achievements.

I don't at all feel like I've had CAC or anything else rammed down my throat and I'm pretty aware of and read plenty of climbing-related stories. I don't feel the 'need' to donate to CAC - I choose to donate to something out of my own voltion and there's obviously plenty of people in the world having plenty of horrible things happening to them every day - climbers getting cancer is one of a hundred million things to rage against and try to alleviate in some tiny way.

If people feel like they're supposed to conform to certain stereotypes when they encounter something like CAC then I suggest - if you strongly disagree with the concept - that having the conviction to politely but firmly ignore or refute it is superior to making a hamfisted display of slagging-off what is obviously essentially a harmless, well-intentioned idea; especially given what else out there there is that you could be slagging off instead.

That said, I agree with Jasper that as something gets closer to becoming unquestioning convention I'm likely to question it more. But some people need to get some perspective here - if it isn't CAC being pushed then it's Prana/Adidas/Five Ten/Wild Country/over-caffeinated sugary drink company or Audi - or whichever other combo of selling crap and pushing image it is that climbers and companies choose to align themselves with.

[rodma]

Must admit I have a bit of a problem with statements like:

If you don’t know about CAC then I am disappointed in you! Go find out and buy yourself a t-shirt. If you do know about CAC and you don’t own a t-shirt then you should do something about that!

I realise Shauna is just being nice and supporting a cause but it helps the whole thing seem similar to the wearing of poppies. When something is made out to be more compulsory than optional then I immediately go the other way. I give money to poppy sellers but I wont wear one.

Shauna is involved in the charity, so it is unsurprising that she is promoting it.

It's definitely not compulsory to buy a tee or a sticker or whatever, the amount of coverage that CAC is getting just shows how successful the campaign has been so far.

However, I do know what you mean and i am a fellow non-poppy wearer, but contributor.

i have bought a CAC tshirt and i have worn it a bit, but certainly don't feel the need to be seen in it to the exclusivity of all other available clothing options (it's too hot for shirts on at the moment anyway)

[metal arms]

Must admit I have a bit of a problem with statements like:

If you don’t know about CAC then I am disappointed in you! Go find out and buy yourself a t-shirt. If you do know about CAC and you don’t own a t-shirt then you should do something about that!

I realise Shauna is just being nice and supporting a cause but it helps the whole thing seem similar to the wearing of poppies. When something is made out to be more compulsory than optional then I immediately go the other way. I give money to poppy sellers but I wont wear one.

I agree.  Except I wear a poppy, but I don't ever feel that this is compulsory.

At work we have a charity dress down day which I do not contribute to.  All the money to the charity comes from the staff, there is no contribution from the company so I feel that it is hypocritical of my employer to expect a contribution out of our wages when they do not have the good grace to match it.  If they did this I would see it as a good idea and probably join in, whether or not I thought the charity was the best one to give my money too or not.

P.S. Lund - Nice rant

[Lund]

But some people need to get some perspective here - if it isn't CAC being pushed then it's Prana/Adidas/Five Ten/Wild Country/over-caffeinated sugary drink company or Audi - or whichever other combo of selling crap and pushing image it is that climbers and companies choose to align themselves with

Key point here Pete, is that nobody gets fuckloads of abuse for not liking Audi.  You get me?

[GCW]

Fuck CAC, what about all this MOON shit that gets rammed down my throat every fucking time I go out climbing. I'm sure Lund is equally fucked off with all the PRANA crap at his local yoga class and Fiend must constantly fight back the rage while queing in his local McDonalds at the sight of all those people wearing clothes, fuckers, why are we obliged to wear clothes? Hey, WHY THE FUCK SHOULD WE!! I AM SO FUCKING ANGRY...

Luckily I have bigger things to worry about, like whether I need a shit or will just a piss suffice?

Jasper you blood-sucking daywalker how dare you not wear a poppy, you cunt.

I think maybe just a piss...

You're just annoyed that they don't do CAC shirts in children's sizes, thus you can't join in and get one.

[Jaspersharpe]

Fiend is annoyed they don't do one in orange camo. Come to think of it that really would make me want to vomit. 

[rodma]

But some people need to get some perspective here - if it isn't CAC being pushed then it's Prana/Adidas/Five Ten/Wild Country/over-caffeinated sugary drink company or Audi - or whichever other combo of selling crap and pushing image it is that climbers and companies choose to align themselves with

Key point here Pete, is that nobody gets fuckloads of abuse for not liking Audi.  You get me?

I agree that there is a massive difference between the two.

Adam retracted his statement (once the thread splitting was made clear) and I merely smited for trolling, not for differing opinion and i haven't seen much evidence of anyone getting fuckloads of abuse for putting their reasoned opinions across, but maybe I am missing something.

Are people having virtual punchups over on faceache or by personal message? i hope not.

[petejh]

But some people need to get some perspective here - if it isn't CAC being pushed then it's Prana/Adidas/Five Ten/Wild Country/over-caffeinated sugary drink company or Audi - or whichever other combo of selling crap and pushing image it is that climbers and companies choose to align themselves with

Key point here Pete, is that nobody gets fuckloads of abuse for not liking Audi.  You get me?

No, not really. Nobody's giving three nine 'fuckloads of abuse'?

[Will Hunt]

Someone above mentioned that UKBers were generally undergunned when it came to non-climbing discussion. I think this thread itself goes some way to showing that interesting reasoned debate can take place here.

Personally, I'm in the camp who think that the charity is doing good work and is worthy of a great deal of respect but who would prefer not to wear a t-shirt. In fact I more than likely would choose not to donate to CAC. Before you reach for the Punter button, that is not because I've instead chosen to wear a Climbers Against Climbers Against Cancer wristband, but because me and the missus already give to MacMillan.
Cancer is fucking shit, to put it lightly. When I hear that somebody I care about has cancer or has died from cancer, then it's devastating. People seem to be snatched away by it when they are far too young. However, cancer is but one of many afflictions that can affect people: lack of access to clean drinking water is another; as is Alzheimers. Donations to cancer research and support charities are a super way to spend your disposable income if you choose, but it does tend to gobble up people's charitable giving to the detriment of other worthy causes.

If anybody would like to sponsor me for a three day bike ride from Morecambe to Scarborough in early September then please feel free to PM me and I'll send you the link. The charity is WaterAid.

[Will Hunt]

As an aside, when I saw the podium pictures from the BBCs my first thought was "There are some CAC supporters" as opposed to "There are some strong young wads". Not necessarily a bad thing if all the competitors had chosen to use their position in the comp to support the charity. To play devil's advocate, could there have been one (or more?!) amongst them who fall into the same "camp" as I and others - the supporters who would choose not to wear the T-shirt - who felt pressured to wear it in the photo op lest he be labelled The Climber Who Is For Cancer?
I'm sure that isn't the case, but then you only have to look at the upheavals every November when someone dares to step in front of a television camera without (wittingly or unwittingly) a poppy displayed on the lapel. I'm sure climbers are better than that though.


(I'm not sure if this is really relevant to the debate)

[LucyB]

As an aside, when I saw the podium pictures from the BBCs my first thought was "There are some CAC supporters" as opposed to "There are some strong young wads". Not necessarily a bad thing if all the competitors had chosen to use their position in the comp to support the charity. To play devil's advocate, could there have been one (or more?!) amongst them who fall into the same "camp" as I and others - the supporters who would choose not to wear the T-shirt - who felt pressured to wear it in the photo op lest he be labelled The Climber Who Is For Cancer?
I'm sure that isn't the case, but then you only have to look at the upheavals every November when someone dares to step in front of a television camera without (wittingly or unwittingly) a poppy displayed on the lapel. I'm sure climbers are better than that though.


(I'm not sure if this is really relevant to the debate)

I think it might have felt awkward to choose to not wear the t-shirt when the guy dying of cancer was there right in front of them, having judged in the comp despite the fact that he is dying. Respect to him and everything he is doing right now; you might not like the t-shirts but just remember that when you see the top comp climbers wearing the t-shirts it is less about them jumping on the bandwagon and more about the fact that someone they know pretty well is trying to do something he sees as important and good in the short time he has left.

[Oldmanmatt]

As an aside, when I saw the podium pictures from the BBCs my first thought was "There are some CAC supporters" as opposed to "There are some strong young wads". Not necessarily a bad thing if all the competitors had chosen to use their position in the comp to support the charity. To play devil's advocate, could there have been one (or more?!) amongst them who fall into the same "camp" as I and others - the supporters who would choose not to wear the T-shirt - who felt pressured to wear it in the photo op lest he be labelled The Climber Who Is For Cancer?
I'm sure that isn't the case, but then you only have to look at the upheavals every November when someone dares to step in front of a television camera without (wittingly or unwittingly) a poppy displayed on the lapel. I'm sure climbers are better than that though.


(I'm not sure if this is really relevant to the debate)

I think it might have felt awkward to choose to not wear the t-shirt when the guy dying of cancer was there right in front of them, having judged in the comp despite the fact that he is dying. Respect to him and everything he is doing right now; you might not like the t-shirts but just remember that when you see the top comp climbers wearing the t-shirts it is less about them jumping on the bandwagon and more about the fact that someone they know pretty well is trying to do something he sees as important and good in the short time he has left.

And that might be the truest thing said so far...

[Three Nine]

I haven't read this all through, but good that people are making points on both sides. Just yesterday I was having mods pm me threatening a ban (which is fine, whatever), but seems that maybe it was something people were interested in discussing; its meant to be a forum after all.

Adam and all the other cross people: no I don't have to be all respectful of this chap - I can say I don't like his t-shirts and  that they piss me off. If that means I get banned from a forum, i'm sure i'll cope (and no doubt you will too). For the record i've never given anything to a cancer charity and I don't imagine I ever will. Perhaps this makes me pure evil, but I don't want to give the impression that I do lots of secret giving that I just don't want to advertise.

[mrjonathanr]

I'm fine with that personally. You're entitled to your view and I support your right to air it. I actually think the debate is a good thing ( I lost someone very close to me to cancer so I'm far from ignorant of the issues), but your approach might be better leavened with tact.

No taboo, don't soften your stance _ I think you have a valid point- but do try to articulate it with sensitivity when dealing with sensitive issues.

[Adam Lincoln]

no I don't have to be all respectful of this chap

How can any human being say that?  You don't respect his strength, and the stuff he is doing in order that maybe one day, others will benefit?

Funny how in real life you wouldn't say boo too a goose! Hope you develop some nasty terminal disease. Thats my personal opinion, and others may say its harsh, and even bullying, but i mean it from the bottom of my heart.

[Three Nine]

You do seem to know a lot about me Adam, though I don't believe we've ever met. Rest assured I don't say 'boo' to passing geese very often, and I certainly hope i'm not too rude to people, but I generally say what I think about stuff - i'd certainly say that I didn't care about CAC and the t-shirts piss me off in 'real life', whatever that is. You seem to have a ton of sand in your vagina, but we don't have to be chums so that's ok.

[Three Nine]

ok that post made it sound like I think im a good and reasonable person - i'm certainly not that, but whatever. Bored of this now, as bored as I am of CAC t-shirts. Not going to post again on this topic, hate away!

[Adam Lincoln]

ok that post made it sound like I think im a good and reasonable person - i'm certainly not that,

Oh you rebel you. You really want to dispel the image you portray in real life don't you! You could never be taken seriously with those glasses though. That the last i am going to say on the matter too. This is making me angry. When you have lost loved ones to cancer, you may appreciate my anger towards you.

[Will Hunt]

As an aside, when I saw the podium pictures from the BBCs my first thought was "There are some CAC supporters" as opposed to "There are some strong young wads". Not necessarily a bad thing if all the competitors had chosen to use their position in the comp to support the charity. To play devil's advocate, could there have been one (or more?!) amongst them who fall into the same "camp" as I and others - the supporters who would choose not to wear the T-shirt - who felt pressured to wear it in the photo op lest he be labelled The Climber Who Is For Cancer?
I'm sure that isn't the case, but then you only have to look at the upheavals every November when someone dares to step in front of a television camera without (wittingly or unwittingly) a poppy displayed on the lapel. I'm sure climbers are better than that though.


(I'm not sure if this is really relevant to the debate)

I think it might have felt awkward to choose to not wear the t-shirt when the guy dying of cancer was there right in front of them, having judged in the comp despite the fact that he is dying. Respect to him and everything he is doing right now; you might not like the t-shirts but just remember that when you see the top comp climbers wearing the t-shirts it is less about them jumping on the bandwagon and more about the fact that someone they know pretty well is trying to do something he sees as important and good in the short time he has left.

Pardon me, that's not what I meant. I've never met John but I have the greatest respect for what he's doing. I've no doubt the climbers all personally wanted to wear the tees. And I certainly don't dislike the tees, I just wouldn't choose to wear one (regardless of whether I gave to the charity or not).

[Duma]

Hope you develop some nasty terminal disease. Thats my personal opinion, and others may say its harsh, and even bullying, but i mean it from the bottom of my heart.

Classy, Adam. you may have been affected by cancer, as have many of us, and 39 may lack tact, but wishing terminal disease on someone? for not respecting someone you do? for not sharing your veiws and your priorities? I'd try looking at rich d's or OMM's eloquent replies. what you've said above is considerably worse than anything 39 has said on this thread.

[Adam Lincoln]

Hope you develop some nasty terminal disease. Thats my personal opinion, and others may say its harsh, and even bullying, but i mean it from the bottom of my heart.

Classy, Adam. you may have been affected by cancer, as have many of us, and 39 may lack tact, but wishing terminal disease on someone? for not respecting someone you do? for not sharing your veiws and your priorities? I'd try looking at rich d's or OMM's eloquent replies. what you've said above is considerably worse than anything 39 has said on this thread.

I stand by what i said. Punter away. I really don't care.

[Jaspersharpe]

Wishing someone dies horribly for expressing an opinion is at best childish and stupid and at worst extremely offensive. Adam, you're not doing yourself or your argument any favours whatsoever.

There are many people on this thread who have been personally affected by cancer, myself included. Debate is one thing, hoping for a nasty death of someone is another.

No need.

[lukeh]

I'm another of the middle ground holders and so don't have that much of an opinion on cac itself, but the whole idea of needing to respect someone is interesting... do we need to respects Armstrong too?

Also, for a forum that touts itself as being far removed from ukc, threatening to ban 39 for starting a debate that is by no means one sided seems strange...