[crimp]

After selling a load of dvd boxsets and emptying the sofa, i finally scraped together enough coinage for a much needed new pair of shoes yesterday. With one requirement being vegan friendly i narrowed it down to five ten anasazi VCS, verdes or evolv bandits.

I dismissed the bandits on account of rubber didn't look too great.

VCSs won out cos of nice stiff sole. Bought at just a half size under street size.

Have worn em about house, and they're a proper toe mangler.

2 questions before i wear them for real and make them unreturnable.

Shop chap says they will break in a bit?

Really, which are better on the toe knuckle joints, VCSs or more floppy verdes?

[tomtom]

they will break in (VCS) and I take mine 1.5 sizes smaller than street. So for the first 5-8 sessions I can only keep them on for 5-10 min at a time.. after a while theyre fine.. but they always scrunch my toes up.

[fried]

I have the same problem and find the verdes better as you can adjust them more. Narrow feet not optional.

[SA Chris]

I had doubts with my Anasazis when i first got them, but they do break in and have been brilliant ever since. Just endure the pain barrier for a bit.

[crimp]

Cheers guys

Never had five tens before. I always found sportivas best, but all seem to use suede.

I'll give the VCSs a whirl. It's just with me, when shop person says 'these feel like toe crushers, but at just half size under street shoe, they will break in to be really comfortable'. What i hear is 'we've got a shed load of these, and we need to get em shifted'.

My last pair of scarpas were only bearable for five minutes at first, came good after a while though.

And nothing, no climbing shoe ever invented, could ever be as excruciatingly painful as wretched Boreal ninjas. Could barely get em on. When on wouldn't come off, despite the tears of pain.

[tomtom]

They do stretch a good bit - and that 'cowdura' stuff they're made of stretches then stays streched. So you end up with perfect imprints of your toe knuckles in the material.. be warned though, they do not breathe like natural leather - so its quite important to leave them somewhere freely aired to dry after use. Otherwise they ming. Like no other brand can...

Personally I size them so that they are so tight I can only just get them on.. they then stretch good...

[highrepute]

I'll give the VCSs a whirl. It's just with me, when shop person says 'these feel like toe crushers, but at just half size under street shoe, they will break in to be really comfortable'. What i hear is 'we've got a shed load of these, and we need to get em shifted'.

unlikely to be the case as it's not like VCSs are going to go off or become unpopular. They could have a 100 pairs in the back and be pretty sure that they'll shift eventually.

I also take 1.5 sizes below street shoes size. so at 0.5 sizes down yours should become comfortable within a few wears.

[shark]

Have worn em about house, and they're a proper toe mangler.

You need to climb and sweat in new shoes to break them in properly. 

[thrashhard]

...but when they break in, what they will do, they won´t be any stiff anymore. VCS are pretty well known for not beeing stiff.

[crimp]

Have worn em about house, and they're a proper toe mangler.

You need to climb and sweat in new shoes to break them in properly.

sweating won't be a problem.

Put my holey old scarpas in a local shoe recycling bin yesterday. They're probably causing some kind of hazardous chemicals alert at the recycling centre now.

[shark]

...but when they break in, what they will do, they won´t be any stiff anymore. VCS are pretty well known for not beeing stiff.

With the whites (my main shoe) the key thing I've found with stiffness performance (I should know) for using small footholds  is the lateral torsion across the toes. This takes a while to go.

[cheque]

This is an interesting bit of information about the whites construction versus that of the greens and velcros and explains the lateral tension thing.

[crimp]

Well, in my time I've been through various incarnations by Croft (Jesus, anyone else remember them?), Boreal, Scarpa, Kamet, Vertical, and La Sportiva.

So I've plenty to measure these new five ten things against.

[SA Chris]

Otherwise they ming. Like no other brand can...

I offer you the Evolv Defy. Stink like boiling vomit.

Or wear 8 year old 5.10 pinks while DWS, get it wet, then leave for a month or two in a bag under some wet rash vests in the corner of a warm garage. They actually had mould growing in them.

[crimp]

Otherwise they ming. Like no other brand can...

I offer you the Evolv Defy. Stink like boiling vomit.

Or wear 8 year old 5.10 pinks while DWS, get it wet, then leave for a month or two in a bag under some wet rash vests in the corner of a warm garage. They actually had mould growing in them.

I'll see your defys. And raise you a pair of early 90s sportiva Taos. First ever veggie shoe. Some kind of plastic shit. Best climbing shoe ever in my opinion.  The stench off t.do could only be described as unholy!

[rich d]

Being a punter with large fucked up feet I size my assa velcroes half down from street size. Bit tight around the toes, especially arund the toe knuckles. Should only take a few wears to break in - obviously depending how soft you are. They do stretch a bit so don't overly stress Adge.

[tommytwotone]

they will break in (VCS) and I take mine 1.5 sizes smaller than street. So for the first 5-8 sessions I can only keep them on for 5-10 min at a time.. after a while theyre fine.. but they always scrunch my toes up.

bloody hell chap - didn't realise you were rocking street size minus 1.5!


I go half a size off street size and that's plenty for me, but I reckon I've got the fabled "5:10 shaped feet". Couldn't imagine taking another whole size down, I'd not get 'em on me feet.

[dave]

I'm amazed that shoes only half a size under street size are painful, there's something wrong there. Either your feet are just totally the wrong shape for velcros, or you wear your street shoes about a size too small. If I bought velcros only a half size down they would feel baggy as fuck, I go 1.5 sizes down on almost any rockshoe, except shit like teams or dragons where the sizing is all to cock. Om sporticas I would have to go down 2.5 or 3 sizes as their sizing man is on crack.

[robertostallioni]

completely agree, Dave, but with less Latin.

[miso soup]

My trainers are a 7, my old Evolv Defys were a 6, having just entered 5.10 world after someone looking at my feet and informing me that I too have the fabled 5.10 foot I find myself in the ridiculous position of wearing size 4.5 women's coyotes.  I am not a woman.  For the first few sessions I had to take them off between every attempt at a problem, they are a lot better now but I still can't keep them on for a whole session, have to take them off and wiggle the toes every now and then, especially after being on anything that revolves around standing on bad footholds.  The knuckles of my big toes are also not pretty right now.  Still had less than 20 sessions in them so they might still have a bit of stretching to do I suppose.

[thrashhard]

I'm amazed that shoes only half a size under street size are painful, there's something wrong there. Either your feet are just totally the wrong shape for velcros, or you wear your street shoes about a size too small. If I bought velcros only a half size down they would feel baggy as fuck, I go 1.5 sizes down on almost any rockshoe, except shit like teams or dragons where the sizing is all to cock. Om sporticas I would have to go down 2.5 or 3 sizes as their sizing man is on crack.

i would like to see you wearing evolvs 1.5 sizes down from your street shoes...
even if a also wear my anasazis 1.5 sizes down i cannot agree with your dogma of "every brand 1.5 down". This would definitly not work with boreals blades and i couldn´t imagine my feet in 1.5 downsized dragons or hornets where street=climbing-shoesize.
It´s different with every brand, and sometimes different within one brand, an there is no general downsizing size for climbing shoes.

[SA Chris]

a pair of early 90s sportiva Taos.

Those black things? A friend had a pair in SA, and the smell was unimagineable. He also used to have to take them off and hide them out of the sun as they got so hot they burned his feet. Bit like Jasper and holy water.

[crimp]

a pair of early 90s sportiva Taos.

Those black things? A friend had a pair in SA, and the smell was unimagineable. He also used to have to take them off and hide them out of the sun as they got so hot they burned his feet. Bit like Jasper and holy water.

yea those black things. I used to store them on a windowsill. Couldn't have them indoors. And they did make your feet really hot in summer. In fact i would say that in hot weather your feet fermented in them.

They climbed brilliantly mind.

And as for all this cramming your feet in to way small shoes in a style Chinese foot binders could only dream of, we used to do that back in the day. Which led to me having to have both big toe nails removed, and having very arthritic toe knuckles in my 40s.

Comfort fit all the way for me now.

[mrjonathanr]

Not as good as Kendos. i moved away from Sportiva when they brought out the Tao, thought it was an inferior boot tbh. Horses for err.. -foot shapes, I guess.

[tommytwotone]

...arthritic toe knuckles in my 40s.

Comfort fit all the way for me now.

I think that is coming my way now - have noticed that after an hour or so, especially at the wall and particularly when wearing downturned shoes by big toe knuckles get pretty sore. Thought I was joining Gout Club for a bit!

[mrjonathanr]

Try Instincts, roomy knuckles, excellent shoe. Much better than 5.10 for me.

[Duma]

Not vegan though?

[mrjonathanr]

tommytwotone is vegan?

[Duma]

Sorry, thought it was a suggestion to adge.

[mrjonathanr]

No problem... on the other hand, aren't the new Instinct VS's all synthetic?

[frankstoneline]

No problem... on the other hand, aren't the new Instinct VS's all synthetic?

Think thats the instinct slipper thats all synthetic, but my memory is foggy at the moment.

[AndyR]

Well, in my time I've been through various incarnations by Croft (Jesus, anyone else remember them?),

Croft B3's were my second pair of boots after a very knackered pair of hand-me-down EB's.
Not bad for brick edge cruising IIRC...

[rich d]

You can't beat boreal jokers! spent 6 months perving over them before being able to buy them. Then 6 months breaking them in, only for them to still fucking cripple you, as tight shoes were where it was at

[dave]

I'm amazed that shoes only half a size under street size are painful, there's something wrong there. Either your feet are just totally the wrong shape for velcros, or you wear your street shoes about a size too small. If I bought velcros only a half size down they would feel baggy as fuck, I go 1.5 sizes down on almost any rockshoe, except shit like teams or dragons where the sizing is all to cock. Om sporticas I would have to go down 2.5 or 3 sizes as their sizing man is on crack.

i would like to see you wearing evolvs 1.5 sizes down from your street shoes...
even if a also wear my anasazis 1.5 sizes down i cannot agree with your dogma of "every brand 1.5 down". This would definitly not work with boreals blades and i couldn´t imagine my feet in 1.5 downsized dragons or hornets where street=climbing-shoesize.
It´s different with every brand, and sometimes different within one brand, an there is no general downsizing size for climbing shoes.

So hang on, out of all the rockshoes available you've picked 4 examples there, I said myself its not every shoe, but back before I realised that boreal rubber is crap I routinely wore boreals for years and every single pair of boreals I wore, from punter shoes to stringers and jokers were 1.5 sizes down, sportivas were 2.5 sizes down (due to their consistently 1size out sizing policy) as were scarpa, and lo and behold as are fivetens now, with the exception of the more extreme down toed models like teams and drags which are more like street sizes. Fuck knows about evolvs, they didn't exist when I was still slumming it with other brands. I think I' ve tried on enough shoes over the years to have a feeleing for what size, disregarding weird outliers, that I would try on first, and its usually 1.5 down (2.5 formsportivas) for all the brands I've ever tried.

[crimp]

Well, in my time I've been through various incarnations by Croft (Jesus, anyone else remember them?),

Croft B3's were my second pair of boots after a very knackered pair of hand-me-down EB's.
Not bad for brick edge cruising IIRC...

had a pair of they myself. Still fondly clearly picture them. Grey boot with red trim and laces. With an equal height rand right round boot. Over the moon when i got them.

And bricks in and out walls in school gyms it was at the time.

[SA Chris]

Croft B3s were my first too. I remember having to remove some crap cardboard bit from the heel as it dug in and hurt like bollocks.

[Zen]

I wear the newer model 5.10 Teams and while they aren't everyones cup of tea, I find them astonishing. The toe box is sublime and the sensitivity is amazing but the heel has started to sag after 3/4 of a year use; the only downside. I decided to try and remedy this by looking at other shoes but there was nothing even close to the these in any respect, bar one:

5.10 Dragons.

I tried these on - same toe box, same cracking fit, (more-or-less the) same rubber, same sensitivity AND the heel fitted perfectly. I can't wait to get them, I would swear by 5.10's if you have the correct foot shape.

In fact, has anyone that regularly wears Teams tried the La Sportiva Solution? I hear these are good alternatives with the same performance but more comfort. I'm dubious unless someone can tell me otherwise haha.

[Richie Crouch]

I find the solutions round off on the toe box faster and flatten out more than the teams. The heel fits me slightly better but I preferred the narrowness and increased 'feel' or sensitivity on the team heel. The best heel I have used is the instinct vs... but the rubber is a bit too hard for me. Going to resol(v)e them in stealth when they go through and see if it is the answer!

[cha1n]

As mentioned, the solutions are a bit stiffer and feel less accurate than the teams/dragons and whilst the heel on the solution tends to fit people better, it's very rigid - which can be a problem. That said, many of the world's top climbers wear them so let's face it, they must be pretty decent and more than capable of climbing anything.

I've just bought a pair of the new (blue)blackwings and the heel is much better than the old blackwings (which were basically team heels). They are quite soft, so possibly not as versatile as the dragons but I'm trying my best to not to have to break in another pair of dragons. You might think the dragons are the same shape as the teams but they are definitely pointier and they push my long toes up too much. I'm no in hurry to climb vertical walls on microcrimps so I don't envision the softness will be a problem any time soon...

[Zen]

Richie, I tried on a pair of Instinct VS's after I was recommended them to solve my Team heel issues. Unfortunately, I really didn't like any aspect of the shoe, too much rigidity and support and with Teams being my first and only pair of rock shoes the Scarpa's felt like slippers! I'm glad you've found something that fits, and here's hoping that Stealth-ing up that heel works some wonders!

cha1n, have you tried all of the shoes you've mentioned? The new Blackwings look tempting if your heel fitting suggestion is correct, but I don't like the lack of rubber on the toe. I'm all for soft shoes though, would you recommend them as better-fitting alternatives to the Teams?

[cha1n]

Yes, I've tried all of the shoes I mentioned. I've had 2 pairs of dragons, a pair of solutions that I sold on within a week. I currently use dragons/teams as my main shoes butI'm trying to ween myself off of the dragons because they take so long for me to break in.

If you've tried the dragons on and you were happy with the fit, they are a much more versatile shoe than the others. They are the only shoe I've used that I'm happy using on steep or vertical ground. Mainly because you can adjust the laces to suit,  tighten them up fully for edgy stuff, loosen them up a bit for smeary stuff, etc. They'd also be my shoe of choice if I only had space for one pair in a bag or something. Oh and almost forgot, because they're more pointy than the other shoes, they're excellent in pockets - the teams feel so rounded in comparison. So Yeh... Excellent shoe, just very painful for me.

Lastly, would I recommend the new blackwings as better fitting teams? Not really, they're more like narrower, softer arrowheads with an improved dragon heel. I also think the blackwings will be really durable as the stealth hf rubber on them looks very thick. I certainly won't be getting rid of my teams from my bag. Teams are for roofs/stuff needing toehooks and BWs for the rest. 9 months for the team heel isn't too bad really, my big toe is close to going through by then anyway!