[Bonjoy]

Jon did you do the problem in the guide described as stateside? If so this is 7b. Stateside is just right of the cleft without using the chips

I climbed the rising diagonal arete without the chips. Topped out via gastoning a sloper on the arete and rocking up onto face at the top. I can imagine topping out further right being more like 7c but it would be a bit (more) of an eliminate and like you say the guide gives no indication that this is the case, if it has extra rules at the given grade the guide should point them out.

[nai]

Indeed I did...last try of the weekend after snatching defeat from the jaws of victory on the previous go.

Thought it was about right for Font 7a FWIW; done harder but the grade felt about right.

Nah. you're thinking of Perrin's Crack SDS, RCT was first day.

According to Boulder Britain it looked like RCT started at the base of a ramp to the right of the actual problem but once underneath it became obvious this was a grotty groove and wasn't it.

FWIW, RCT felt improbable until I saw James try the first move straight on whereas I'd been trying to pull on facing right.  Then I tried it that way, flashed it and it felt soft. So

[a dense loner]

Argh stateside doesn't do that at all Jon, that is indeed a 7b. Stateside doesn't go up the arête, it's a bit daft really. You rock left off 2slopers, the right hand of which u jump to. U p rob did this jump n headed off rightwards to glory?

[Bonjoy]

It sounds like I did what you're describing at 7c. Ask Banks next time you see him, I gave him my beta and I think he did it that way. From the big slopey sidepull (Nige is holding with LH in guide) I got a slopey gaston on arete with RH (up and left of what Nige is on), got another sloper with LH and rocked up the face. Think left heel went onto big slopey sidepull at some point.
I had just took over an hour to get up Winsome which got 7a(!) and seemed like the living end, which may well have affected my gradometer.

[Andy B]

I can't remember many details other than that I did whatever Lovejoy told me, didn't jump start and climbed more up the wall than the arete until near the top. I did Winsome, Local Hero Sit Start, Brush Electric, Grey road and Dark Matter all much faster than this (none of these took more than a few goes). The more problems you do, the more apparent it should be that bouldering grades are absolutely arbitrary and mean nothing.

[heelhookofglory]

An interesting topic, thanks TT.

I ticked in the 6C box. When I was bouldering more I was getting very close to the magical (for me) 7A mark but I've focused more on bumbling about on ice a bit over winter rather than bouldering so my strength / ability / psyche has dropped off a bit.

It's interesting to see that the average is quite far above my current level at around 7B+(?). I'd like to see what sort of training or how many sessions-per-week those are working with to achieve the 7B+ standard. When psyched, I was climbing 4 times a week on average and was progressing well until I hit 6C/7A, which was a bit of a wall for me and I'd class myself as fitter-than-average-Joe (but still a punter, obviously!).

I'm blaming Churnet 7As for holding me back. Damn sharp pockets on steep angled rock --vs-- my weak two-finger pocket lock-off strength

[a dense loner]

You don't go right at all for stateside, you just jump up wi right hand n rock/mantel left foot straight up.
Ru knew all this yet put it in wrong, muttering something about so many problems. Personally I think rockfax wouldn't have had such issues.

[Johnny Brown]

. You rock left off 2slopers, the right hand of which u jump to. U p rob did this jump n headed off rightwards to glory?

Going right is harder. Sounds like you and Jon are describing the same move to me. I've never thought it 7c either, but I've seen othe struggle. And lets not forget the guide was written by a midget crimp fiend. Pretty sure I campaigned for a downgrade in the second edition.

[a dense loner]

Oh yes, couldn't agree more. What I'm pointing out is the problem recognised as stateside is not stateside, call the other one yanks town or whatever but it's not miles problem.

[Johnny Brown]

When I say it's harder, I mean as in I've never seen anyone do it. Note Jon said he moved right hand, not left, from where Nige is in the pic. You are describing the same move.

[a dense loner]

I've very naively not bothered to bring my bouldering guide to Trinidad 

[Pantontino]

Cheers Simon.

Sounds like we did something totally different then! Whatever we did needs to be called 'Confusion' or 'Grimer led me astray'.

 

On the contrary, it sounds like you did do RCT, it's just that you didn't agree with the 7A book grade.

One problem, going back to the BB guide, is comparative grades - that book has a few very harsh 7As. For example Higg scar RH is now reckoned to be 7A+ - the adjacent block has actually moved in the last 10 years (see the build up of landslide mud behind it) so there is less clearance, making the sloper hanging section that much harder. If the sun hits that sloper it gets really greasy, even in winter.

Incredible Shaking Man sds at 7A is also wrong - most people think this is hard 7A+ or 7B. The topo line for Howling Hound is wrong too and, if followed, would be much harder than 7A+.

All these factors add some confusion to the grade comparison game.

That being said, it does sound like RCT should be downgraded to 6 something.

[Falling Down]

Calorie Count at Nuda's would probably get 7a if it was at the Tor. I sincerely hope nobody is giving themself 7c for it!

I did this last June and thought 7A or 7A+ as I did it in a few goes and I've never, ever, done a 7B.

[miso soup]

So the thread has descended into ludicrous discussion of micro-beta serving as a reminder that ultimately grades mean nothing.

But anyway, how do these results match up with people's actual perception of reality?

Presumably we can assume that the actual data would be a pyramid, like if we could brainscan everyone who showed up at a wall or crag for the actual hardest thing they've done then the numbers would get consistently lower as we go up the grades.

 I ticked 6B because that's the hardest guidebook grade that I'm aware of for something I've climbed outside in the past year, but I did it easily in a session, I've never spent much time projecting anything outdoors and any time I've been to Font I've abandoned the guidebook within the first day and just wandered around doing whatever looked cool.  I reckon I am probably somewhere at the top of the sixth grade, but 7B still seems nails to me, I don't know many people climbing at that level and from watching other people climb it doesn't seem like the average grade is anywhere near that.  Most walls I've been to around the world don't even have set problems in the eighth grade and the ones in the high sevens rarely get climbed.  But I do live in London, I can imagine in Sheffield it might well seem like everyone climbs at least 7B, like how in Spain everyone and their dog climbs 8c.  I suppose top end climbers do tend to congregate around places with lots of good rock and the perceived average could therefore become lower the further one goes from these hubs.

So whilst accepting that I am still a punter I still don't buy that 7C is the average level people are climbing at.  The poll is nonsense but has resulted in an interesting thread, thanks tomotom. 

[psychomansam]

"I suppose top end climbers do tend to congregate around places with lots of good rock"

Well there's certainly a correlation, but I'm not sure the causation is a one way street.

So whilst accepting that I am still a punter I still don't buy that 7C is the average level people are climbing at.  The poll is nonsense but has resulted in an interesting thread, thanks tomotom.

I'm also a punter and ticked the same box as you. I also have the same perception of those at my local wall. That doesn't mean this poll is nonsense. It's a poll of UKB users. I've been on UKB for years because I enjoy the scene far more than a lot of the shit on UKC, but I've always been under the impression that most climbers on here are climbing above average grades (for the wider climbing community), certainly when it comes to bouldering (unsurprisingly perhaps). Apart from anything else, people who are more focussed on bouldering are likely to be notably stronger the average uk trad (VS) climber. They're also likely to be better at bouldering than trad climbers who just do a bit of bouldering occasionally. Whatever the reason for it though, that's just the way UKB seems to be - full of strong people - and that's what this is a poll of.

Don't worry though, there's always people like me to bring the average right down. I could share my woes if you like, the BS my body had pulled over the last year to keep me fat and weak, but I doubt you want the rundown!
 

[miso soup]

Well there's certainly a correlation, but I'm not sure the causation is a one way street.

Of course, good rock also breeds good climbers.

And we have established that lots of people who are good at bouldering post on UKB...

[Stubbs]

Most walls I've been to around the world don't even have set problems in the eighth grade and the ones in the high sevens rarely get climbed.  But I do live in London

Just to take this, despite what the grades on the tags may say there have been plenty of problems of Font 8A or above set at the Castle, and problems that may purport to be 'V8' are often very high in the 7's and still get climbed.  There is a small but very strong elite group at most of the walls in London.

[Oldmanmatt]

I would say, most walls I've frequented over the years (often to avoid controversy) simply grade anything really hard as "7A+" or "V6/7+". So I'd say it would be hard to judge the true grade of wall problems.
And it must be clear to all, Shirley, that a given grade is a guide only and problem difficulty varies where a climber is 1.2 meters tall with an Ape index of 0.7 or is 2.5 meters tall with an index of 2....

[Johnny Brown]

  There is a small but very strong elite group at most of the walls in London.

Or 'the Polish' as I call them.

[Lopez]

Just to take this, despite what the grades on the tags may say there have been plenty of problems of Font 8A or above set at the Castle, and problems that may purport to be 'V8' 'V6' are often very high in the 7's

[Stubbs]

Or 'the Polish' as I call them.

Then you'd be doing Messrs Partridge and Halsey a disservice to name but a couple

[Nibile]

I am quite sure that I haven't climbed anything hard in gyms. I am also quite sure that some of the hardest problems I've done are on my board. Maybe it's because since moving back to Siena I only trained on my own board and stopped going to any gym of sort except for when I've been in UK!

[tomtom]

Good survey, tomtom ... thanks for setting it up. It confirms that I am weak as a kitten, though I already knew that.

I did a cheeky database query to see how people had voted. With the caveat that I have only limited knowledge of who people are and how hard they normally climb, I didn't spot any obvious anomalies. Especially at the higher end where several claims marry up with videos posted here.  It is also good to see a fairly high correlation between people voting and people who actually post regularly.

Cheers IO2.
It'd be interesting to do every year - see how/if it changes... lets do it again next June. The 'bell shaped curve' of a normal distribution is nearly there - and it looks like a good result. Interesting to hear people have voted in line with what they do. I think the mean has dropped down to 7B now.

The climbing wall grade thing is interesting. As I think I posted earlier - I think climbing wall grades would be more accurate if the problems were there for a number of years, as they would get time to be adjusted and stabilised (much like real problems). But of course they get re-set every few weeks/months etc... (and its only plastic )

[webbo]

Good survey, tomtom ... thanks for setting it up. It confirms that I am weak as a kitten, though I already knew that.

I did a cheeky database query to see how people had voted. With the caveat that I have only limited knowledge of who people are and how hard they normally climb, I didn't spot any obvious anomalies. Especially at the higher end where several claims marry up with videos posted here.  It is also good to see a fairly high correlation between people voting and people who actually post regularly.

.                                                                                                                             Just when I was going to post that I had climbed 8b in North Lincolnshire.

[Muenchener]

The climbing wall grade thing is interesting.

My experience is that I boulder about the same (low) grade outdoors as I do at the stiffer-grading walls I go to.

A lot of German walls avoid the issue though by just grading "Easy - Medium - Hard - Really Hard". My current proj  at my local wall is Mild Really Hard, and I'm sure it's somewhere well north of the 6B I put in the survey, but I've no idea by how much. And I haven't done it yet anyway.