[Snoops]

Pete,

If its any consolation Alan has now cemented Rockfax/UKC's reputation as the Tesco's of the climbing world. He/they have been doing this all over Europe , and now in their own back garden. A shame as such a successful company could do so much for the UK scene and still make a handsome living.
Alan - C u next tuesday
Pete - I'll be buying your guide.

[iain]

Leaving aside all the personal stuff, I reckon the main reason its coming out now is that you have done all the donkey work with the re-equipping and he sees it as the perfect opportunity to take advantage of the fact that the crags are all now in good nick gear wise. Pretty parasitic attitude

As others have said the pages look great. There's been enough discussion that a lot of people will be aware of what's happening now.

3 try and tie up distribution outlets. The welsh scene must have a fairly close relationship with the local shops and you might be able to use this to get them to stock your guide exclusively. Also, can you use DMMs database to contact shops outside the local area to send them some sort of communication about the guide, its ethos, the reequipping that it will fund etc and the positive contribution it would make if they stocked it exclusively (no potentially libalous comments  , just the positives). I am sure this would work for a fair few.

This ^

[petejh]

I fully agree with the press/publicity stuff guys, but I'm not set up to do it - its' me, producing a book on my laptop, and that's it! And yes I am taking lots of time trying to fight my corner on here becasue I think it's important to, while also trying to organise route-checking and re-equipping (or rather re-equipping, then route-checking) and trying to get this thing finished
If anyone wants colourful pdf's and to type some publicity blurb then that would be helpful, but I know that's unlikely.

I'm going to continue responding to Alan's points on this thread each time he keeps spinning the facts on his website.

One thing people seem to be missing from my posts above is this: When the alternative guide was announced, it was happy to pit itself against our dedicated 234 page guide, the A55 guide and the NWR selection). So now the competition is minus one dedicated guide, plus one more selective. Alan.

I wouldn't say I was 'happy' to compete. I felt as all the climbers in the area felt - that the area needs a definitive guidebook because it's been 16 years without and there's been a monumental amount of re-equipping done. You weren't doing one then, just like you're not now (just definitive to all the main crags). And which part of of your twisting of the facts correlates with your statement that 'The area cannot support two guidebooks'. You're backtracking, side-stepping and putting out mixed messages - anything in fact to try to slip out of the awkward questions being asked. And what is a 'dedicated guide' - is that some sort of rockfax-speak for a pseudo definitive which only covers the popular, easy-to-reach crags and ignores all the more remote, difficult to reach areas which haven't been re-equipped yet?

Even if you were under the impression as seems to be being claimed, when announcing the alternative book, that we were going to produce a 76 page guidebook (when did Rockfax last produce a 76 page Rockfax?) then the competition is at least the same now as it was when entering the arena ( in reality actually much smaller)..

Nobody's said that and nobody thinks that.

We then withdrew plans for our full guide and announced the NWC guide with clear plans which are exactly the same as the ones we are now re-announcing.

The plan might have been clear in your mind. Nobody else was conscious of your intention, when you backed out of NW Lime claiming you weren't going to compete, to return with a definitive coverage all main areas, timed to be released just ahead of the proper definitive.
That is cynical, parasitic behavior in the extreme. Whichever way you try to slime your way out of it Alan it won't work because everyone can see how you're operating here. A normal select guide to North Wales with normal ratio of coverage in line with NW Rock would show good faith to the people who've revived the NW Lime area and want it all showcased, what is it that you can't stand about that idea?

As I also stated above, I would be totally confident of publishing this other definitive guidebook in the proposed current market and, without wishing to pll rank here, I do know a bit about guidebook sales patterns.

AS above, how does this correlate with your statement in 2011 that 'North Wales Limestone is never a very big area so it was decided that Rockfax would step aside and not compete directly with this new publication.

This one is classic double standards:

So we took the decision to drop that book (NW Lime) - http://www.rockfax.com/news/2011/01/31/change-of-plans-for-north-wales-limestone/ . This was based on pure economics, we didn't think it was worthwhile producing a second book to an area that was a low-selling area that appeared to be getting a definitive guide anyway in the near future.

So if it's uneconomic for you then it's a problem. But if you then decide to try to take the market away from the definitive guide by releasing your pseudo-select first then that's acceptable, as long as it's uneconomic for me, not you.
Excuse me, but WTF? That would be cynical if we was doing this for commercial reasons. But we're doing it because the area needs a definitive guide and it's got tons of good climbing which will never see the light of day otherwise. In short we're doing this for the good of the area. You're totally determined to sink that, as long as it's economical for you. What does that make your company?

Another mistruth from you -

With Jack living there though and keen to get involved we started putting together a fully definitive guide in 2010 (I can't remember when exactly). Jack did loads of work on Upper Pen Trwyn, LPT, and the Diamond.

As Jack said at the time, it was never going to be a fully definitive guide, just a 'selectively' definitive to the main crags which had then been re-equipped, hence the local displeasure and hence our decision to do a proper definitive. Which you know want to try to sink.


This isn't just a personal thing between you and me, however that leads me on to..

This is actually a pretty offensive post (in reply to a poster suggesting a Alan has a grudge with me) and completely untrue. I will not discuss this matter on the forums but plase email me directly if you wish to.

Why do you totally refuse to communicate with me then? I understand I upset you with my comment in 2011 about your level of guidebook research, which I stand by. I also understand if you're bitter and angry that I reported you to the ICO. But it was you who was in the wrong, not me, and to make it worse you were being obnoxiously arrogant about it - so I submitted a totally legitimate complaint which was investigated and you were found guilty. If what the poster in the thread is saying isn't true then what is the reason?

[SA Chris]

So where's the facebook campaign to spread the word?

[Will Hunt]

I'm thinking of something along the lines of the "Don't Buy The Sun" campaign in Liverpool. There's a video on YouTube of a fella outside a newsagents who takes all the Suns they have, covers them in lighter fluid outside, and torches them. I've got a few WrongFax books, maybe we could do a book burning?

To illustrate the point of the lack of checking that is evident in the guides I'll tell a tale:

We were in Chorro and were happily using the book. We set off up El Navigador (I think this is now banned?), a multipitch 7a at the Arab Steps. The 6c pitch a few pitches up fell to me. This was the longest pitch on the route and was described as 25m. I head up the pitch and soon pass a thick mallion on a bolt, a sure harbinger that the crux was approaching. I pocketed the mallion (keep the routes tidy and bolts easy to clip and all that) and headed up, expecting a stiff move, but arrived at the next bolt having not found one. "Unusual", I think. Clipping the chain at the top of the pitch I thought the pitch felt longer than 25m but shrugged it off as nothing as the route finding was quite absorbing and involved. On finishing the climb we abseiled back down. When abbing the 25m 6c pitch I was surprised to find that I just about reached the belay on rope stretch. Climbing as we were, with a 70m rope, this implies that the pitch was a shade longer than 35m. Thus the mysterious mallion was explained. It was just about far enough up the pitch that it would have been the terminal point of someone's ropes had they been climbing on a single 50 or 60m rope. Some poor sods must have had to rebelay on that bolt and ab off from there. The thought makes me cringe.

Not doing a proper job when writing up guides may not just be poor workmanship, it can be dangerous too!
It is worth noting, however, that this has since been corrected.

[SA Chris]

I think that a "don't buy theirs" campaign is too negative. More positive spin of "do buy ours, here's why!"

Setting up a page is easily done and a good way of spreading the message to the masses, via supportive groups and climbing shops.

[Doylo]

I could do some facebook type stuff to help the cause

[Mark Lloyd]

One redeeming aspect is if they stopped work on the guide at the start of 2011 their info is a couple of years out of date.

e.g. Wall of Evening Light is still down as 50m long but there are a couple of pegs now! `There are 16 bolts plus some old pegs so you shouldn't get lost`, you wont get lost is probably correct now its been fully rebolted, also there is still a route called liquid amber at LPT, i'm sure there are lots of other examples. There is still a lot of work to do before publication I feel unless they go to press with junk info ?, who's going to do the checking now this has blown up, you'd think mr geldard wouldn't be too popular if he showed up.

I see there linking to doylos blog on an orme news item, cant that be blocked ?

[Doylo]

One redeeming aspect is if they stopped work on the guide at the start of 2011 their info is a couple of years out of date.

e.g. Wall of Evening Light is still down as 50m long but there are a couple of pegs now! `There are 16 bolts plus some old pegs so you shouldn't get lost`, you wont get lost is probably correct now its been fully rebolted, also there is still a route called liquid amber at LPT, i'm sure there are lots of other examples. There is still a lot of work to do before publication I feel unless they go to press with junk info ?, who's going to do the checking now this has blown up, you'd think mr geldard wouldn't be too popular if he showed up.

I see there linking to doylos blog on an orme news item, cant that be blocked ?

There's enough mistakes in the yellow wall sample page they posted.

[SA Chris]

I'm intrigued to hear reeves's take on this whole thing. Assuming it's the same reeves who is co-editing this guide?

[gme]

Nothing to do with guidebooks but in business i really do believe in never trying to sell your services/product/ideas by slagging off your competitors or pointing out there mistakes and inadequacies. Concentrate on telling your potential customers what your service/ product/ idea does, and why it does it, then let them ask the questions of your competitors. It works for me.

You will end up a bitter and twisted individual if you waste time bad mouthing the competition. Accept there there, focus on what your doing, make sure its much better than theirs and tell everyone how good it is, not how bad there is.

Make yours the best and people will buy it.

[cheque]

 

The definitive guidebook looks fantastic and is clearly going to be a superior product in every way.

[nodder]

Did you call yourself on sight cos you think your better than ground up?

[petejh]

  Nah.
More becasue it feels scarier doing it without any previous knowledge

[slackline]

I thought it might be because you'd got Simon Carter to snap pictures

[petejh]

Nothing to do with guidebooks but in business i really do believe in never trying to sell your services/product/ideas by slagging off your competitors or pointing out there mistakes and inadequacies. Concentrate on telling your potential customers what your service/ product/ idea does, and why it does it, then let them ask the questions of your competitors. It works for me.
You will end up a bitter and twisted individual if you waste time bad mouthing the competition. Accept there there, focus on what your doing, make sure its much better than theirs and tell everyone how good it is, not how bad there is.
Make yours the best and people will buy it.

Completely agree with all of that, with the caveat that I don't think there's too much wrong with illuminating shoddy behaviour. Don't worry - while I can make my point strongly on here I'm fairly philosophical about it and chilled in the real world. I am fired up to fight though because I don't like to see very questionable behavior like rockfax's rewarded, but certainly not going to end up bitter - I'm far more likely to end up contented, in the knowledge that I'm doing something I want to do and giving it my best.

[highrepute]

I could do some facebook type stuff to help the cause

this sounds like a great idea and will basically serve as the "press  release" i asked for earlier.

Keep everything on the FB page positive (no getting into a slagging off rockfax), get the sample pages on there, list of crags covered, number of routes trad/sport, report the positives of this guide (donating profits, bolting/checking going along with it's production, how local guide feed the development of an area and guides like rockfax can do the opposite as they concentrate all the traffic and don't give anything back, not-for-profit, volunteer made, very well researched etc etc), estimated release date.

James

[tomtom]

Do it Pete... its a real easy way.. and we'll all 'like' it Im sure...

[slackline]

Could perhaps ask shark/habrich/bubba for a big up on the front page here.

[petejh]

Ok that sounds a good idea, I don't facebook though so might not be clued up on getting the most out of it. I exited facebook in 2006 (when everyone was entering) and have been deliberately avoiding it since then, apart from a brief reply to someone rubbishing mixed climbing and something else this spring. I'll have my public relations department look into it.

[dave]

Pete is there a website for the guide? I couldn't find one just now. Be nice to have somewhere to direct people to on any future social media viral marketing onslaught.

[petejh]

Nice, Toby. The book is actually already planned to be fully app'd up for android and iPhone - I'm partnered with Steve Golley of The Send climbing apps - again this is just going on in my head and on my laptop so most people probably aren't really that aware of it I suppose but, yeah the whole book will be in app form. So I could pre-release sections for android and iPhone as and when - I'd actually forgotten about that recently! 

Steve's been getting any of his posts on ukc zapped if they mention his TheSend topo app (sorry, not being negative just saying he's being censored ) - they are really great apps you should check them out. Steve's a bit of a genius and has built a first class framework for anyone writing guidebooks to add the text into, the app framework includes an easy to use topo builder which looks awesome - check them out here: http://thesend.co.uk/. He's keen to support bolt funds and local areas with proceeds from sales but he's been saying it's hard to get his message out there to climbers. It really is a great opportunity - I'd have thought the BMC, CC and others would be able to make good use of it - all they need to do is contact Steve.

Did I mention TheSend topo apps for android and iPhone? - check them out! http://thesend.co.uk/apps.php

[petejh]

We've got a webpage Dave but it's blank and tbh I can't see me having time to make it look like anything.

[richieb]

Those sample pages look ace, looking forward to seeing the guide.
I can see my old house on that photo of tramstation/empire crags 

[dave]

We've got a webpage Dave but it's blank and tbh I can't see me having time to make it look like anything.

Seriously get someone to sort that out, and get your keywords and shit sorted so that when anyone googles "north wales limestone" they don't just get the cockfax coming up. Even if its just a single page with example guidbook pages on you need something - beg a mate or someone to sort you out, its not difficult these days. Shit I be someone on here would do you one before you can say "mick ryan".