[mrjonathanr]

Surely as an academic you realize how upsetting it must be to be accused of plagiarism?

[andy popp]

So many bloody typos in my post: the denial/rebuttal/demand for retraction HASN'T happened and Alan asked if I was GOING to apologize (asked in dead earnest)/

[mrjonathanr]

Oh I got you loud and clear Andy, text on the page is a bit too flat to convey irony, but that was how my comment was intended.

[ianv]

Alan asked if I was GOING to apologize (asked in dead earnest)/

Careful. he might send his attack poodle kitty wolfo to slobber on you 

[dave]

So many bloody typos in my post: the denial/rebuttal/demand for retraction HASN'T happened and Alan asked if I was GOING to apologize (asked in dead earnest)/

Hold the fuck on this is getting confusing. Can someone please just tell me who I need to be hating on right now.

[tomtom]

So many bloody typos in my post: the denial/rebuttal/demand for retraction HASN'T happened and Alan asked if I was GOING to apologize (asked in dead earnest)/

Hold the fuck on this is getting confusing. Can someone please just tell me who I need to be hating on right now.

Nothings changed, Rockfax still the bad guys...

If I understand correctly... Andy was providing a bit more detail about how Alan managed to get hold of some imaginary route descriptions that seemed to exist in either Andys head or some scraps of notes - that somehow ended up in a guide (without Andys permission).. when confronted on the phone about it Alan seemed to think Andy should apologise... allegedly that is.

[andy popp]

Yes, that's - allegedly - right; Alan expected me to apologize to him.

[SA Chris]

What are you supposed to apologise for?

"Sorry Alan, I had a project marked on a personal manuscript that curiously mysteriously got into your hands and ended up in one of your guidebooks, which you hadn't bpthered checking properly, and made some good money from selling, and didn't credit me with input into. I promise I won't let it happen again".

[ianv]

There seems to be some weird parallel RF/UKC/AJ universe where where wronged must apologise to the wronging, "less than one year" is no different to between "1 and 2 years" and its fine to stomp over anyone for a few bob.

[fiveknuckle21]

 Ive been tipped over the edge by the obvious and insultingly cynical choice of RF to post the Bolt Fund supporting note. What a crock of shit. I hope the only good thing that comes out of this is that the NWBF has had increased coverage and hopefully more monies.

 I cannot believe this "oh he needs to feed his family", "oh he doesn't" argument. The whole concept of earning money involves the investment of your time into something, whether its lifting bins at 4am in the morning or negotiating a deal in New York. It doesnt, or shouldnt involve capitalising on other peoples unpaid efforts who have invested just as much of there own personal time into something out of choice. People are talking about it like they see this guidebook as cha-ching. A money maker. Forgive me for rose tinted spectacles but surely the climbing community is better than this!

 If people want to swallow the RF statement like its the gospel then I say wake up! I just cant believe I'm hearing it!

 Another note. How many independent gear manufacturers are there now in the UK? The likes of Moon, DMM, Momentum, Blox... You don't seem them stepping over one another just for the buck.

[sherlock]

In a nutshell,Mr fiveknuckle.

[sherlock]

Or Ms.fiveknuckle,of course.

[Johnny Brown]

How many independent gear manufacturers are there now in the UK? The likes of Moon, DMM, Momentum, Blox... You don't seem them stepping over one another just for the buck.

Not really a useful comparison: these firms are in straight competition with each other. A better analogy might be if one of these firms started selling Climbers against cancer t-shirts, without donating any money to said charity. But justifying it on the grounds they are raising awareness, and had put a donation link on their site. Would we stand for that?

[shark]

How many independent gear manufacturers are there now in the UK? The likes of Moon, DMM, Momentum, Blox... You don't seem them stepping over one another just for the buck.

Not really a useful comparison: these firms are in straight competition with each other. A better analogy might be if one of these firms started selling Climbers against cancer t-shirts, without donating any money to said charity. Nut justifying it on the grounds they are raising awareness, and had put a donation link on their site. Would we stand for that?

Or Stu wholesaling his "Climbers Against Barrows" T Shirt

[Johnny Brown]

I wouldn't have a problem with that, at this stage in the game raising awareness against Barrows will have to do.

[Stu Littlefair]

It goes without saying that I would donate all proceeds to research to mitigate the harmful effects of Barrows, and eventually find a cure.

[Johnny Brown]

Are you taking pre-orders?

[shark]

It goes without saying that I would donate all proceeds to research to mitigate the harmful effects of Barrows, and eventually find a cure.

Whilst that is encouraging news we will be seeking independent verification by checking your accounts at Companies House to make sure the proceeds haven't been spent on Chicken McNuggets

[fiveknuckle21]

Fair point Johnny Brown. Although your analogy merely incenses me more.

[robertostallioni]

It goes without saying that I would donate all proceeds to research to mitigate the harmful effects of Barrows, and eventually find a cure.

[dobbin]

I'd like to buy a whole range of Anti Barrows clothing.

[DimContio]

Interesting that DMM have been bought up, as I was wondering if they ever would be.

Don't get me wrong, I really rate DMM kit, in fact most of my rack seems to be DMM stuff. But has no-one noticed that the Dragon is a Camalot? It's hardly as if DMM have done any more extra work on the Camalot to make the Dragon, than RF with their guides...

the t-shirt analogy is good, very good. but cancer is a bit different to bolts isn't it? Or is climbing really really really important??

Nonetheless, I think it's pretty ungracious how to begin with there was the call to "reduce the limestone coverage" after Pete sort of got the wrong end of the stick with the databases. To begin with it seemed pretty dick-ish of RF, but Alan has cut a load of stuff. Yes he has still included a lot of the popular routes on the popular buttresses, but anyone can find those by using NWR and the Wiki, as I have done. Pete is making a definitive, and those that looked forward to the definitive won't suddenly go out and buy the RF instead. (IMO)

Then everyone was angry that Alan had said he had donated to "bolt funds" (the exact terminology used I think). So when it was found that the last time he donated to a North Walian Bolt Fund was when he had done the previous guide (That Pete is using to make his guide - ironic??) there is an outrage. Im pretty sure Alan said he had donated to bolt funds in general, and if you look on the RF website, when you go to buy a book, you are given the option of donating to the dorset bolt fund or the ACT... evil, I know.

So now that Alan said he'll donate profits (and no doubt add the NWBF into the RF checkout system) and reduce coverage, everyone still has a hissy fit! Pretty unbelievable, though highly entertaining.

I have read both threads with glee. Pete doesn't need the money (you said so yourself) Alan has kids and employees to pay. Yep, it's nice to have shiny bolts, and Pete has done a mega effort putting a handline into the diamond (RF wont profit from this) and all the other stuff, yet you all still use UKC for free (Even Pete does!!), probably have one or two RF guides.

AND I bet you all shop at Tescos, or Asda, or some other corporation that makes Alan James and RF/UKC look like teddy-bears in comparison. Even not including the attrocities that we force the third world into without batting an eyelid, supermarkets treat their employees pretty badly, giving them minimal hour contracts, forcing them to need overtime,  and then if profits aren't high enough, cutting hours at the drop of a hat.

The only problem I have with the RF NWC is I can't see what the point in it is, when there is NWR which, to my mind is as good as anything. Having come to North Wales 4 years ago with one clutched to my breast it has served as my Bible ever since, and yes I've bought the 'Beris, Big G, Trem-dog, Slate definitives, but it's still a book I reach for time and time again. I feel more sorry for Pantontino than NWL authors!

I will be buying the NWL, probably won't buy the RF, but not because of some hatred towards RF, in fact Pete's lack of grace at Alan's reduction of the Lime section and promise to give money to the bolt fund have made me think twice, to begin with I could see his point (even though i think he jumped the gun a bit) but now I think you are being a bit childish, Pete. Alan has said he believes there wasn't room for two definitives,  so didn't make one. He hasn't really encroached on your definitive term with his lime section, but has cut it and pledged money to the bolt fund. what more do you want?? A handjob?

NWL looks great Pete and I'm sure you'll sell loads because people wanting to know all the routes on NWL will buy your guide as it:

a)is better value for money as it has more crags in it,

b) most of those people will have guides to the other areas so it would be weird to buy a selective book for a particular section when there is a strong definitive alternative. 

The only people who will buy the RF will be newbies who haven't already got NWR, I reckon!

I think this is further proof that all climbers are, essentially  on the internet, bet all of you haters are lovely in real life! Pete's a bit surly but seemed alright, and Alan seems pretty nice too, (having not spent much time with either). Maybe we should remember that there are people starving in the world who probably dont give 2 shits about some bolts in the second worst climbing venue in North Wales 

[scottygillery]

Maybe we should remember that there are people starving in the world who probably dont give 2 shits about some bolts in the second worst climbing venue in North Wales 

Shit. And a pimp was going to take some time from deadlifting to write a strongly worded letter to my MP about snooping by the UK government. You've reminded me that "people starving in the world who probably dont give 2 shits about" the privacy of UK citizens. So I went to McDonalds instead and took a piss in the park.

Cheers Brother.

[fiveknuckle21]

Again, fair point. However this isnt a charity forum and adding a different perspective to things does not detract from the original point. I think we're all agreement that things could be alot worse for us but comparisons to big supermarket chains serves little point.

 The main issue here is that petejh, from what I have surmised, has been doing this as a labour of love and something that will hopefully turn into something benefinicial for the area whereas RF has done this to turn a profit, rather weakly stating after a fortnight of discussion that it will publically support the bolt fund aswell. This is in hindsight a good thing but still feels like marketing ploy after theyve realised how passionate people have been about it. Maybe an oversight on their part. A bit little too late for me personally and hopefully people will see this too.

[Johnny Brown]

the t-shirt analogy is good, very good. but cancer is a bit different to bolts isn't it?

I did think about that before I made it. Donating money to cancer research is great and worthy indeed, but it is a drop in an ocean of funding with little measurable outcome for those involved. Writing guidebooks for free is worthy too, but involves much more effort to be put in, and gives a much more tangible benefit for the rest of us who add our contribution in the form of the cover price. I think the two balance out, at least for the sake of the analogy.

For me you are missing the main point - the funding for bolts represents the tip of an iceberg that includes the bolting work, and producing the definitive guide. This effort put into these two represents a far bigger contribution than any funding for bolts.

Not only do not RF routinely contribute even to the bolt fund for areas they cover, but they rely on the hard work of others for the raw materials of their product - the routes and the information. This is why they are known as 'topo vampires' in Europe. If climbing was bigger business I have little doubt their modus operandi would be stopped by a court of law.