[petejh]

What's going on with the site? - my laptop's telling me 'this is an attack site' and I had to jump through hoops to access.

[Bubba]

See this topic Pete: http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,22519

We picked up a nasty bit of injected code. We're on top of the problem but Google still has us flagged as dodgy....hopefully not for too long.

[nai]

Would it be worth making the website links to FB & wiki open in a new window rather than redirecting?

[petejh]

In reply to rooroo:
> bringing out a guide that purports to be selective but in fact isn't and just skins the hard work put in by the definitive guide book team is pretty low. You've plumbed the depths this time Rockfax.

You have the information source the wrong way round here. The current existing definitive guidebook was written by me and published by Rockfax in 1997 (based on one by Steve Mayers, also Rockfax 1992). This is the base information source for our guide and the other definitive one.

Of course we do rely on the hard work put in by the local volunteers, the NWBF and the BMC for the areas we cover - some of UPT, LPT some of Gwynt, some of Castle Inn, and Penanen Head - which is why we are supporting the NWBF with a financial contribution.

My understanding is that much of the more recent work is on areas not in our book especially near the lighthouse where I have heard there are many new sport routes. I for one am looking forward to seeing that book in print as well.

That's actually pretty damn disrespectful to the authors of the 5 guidebooks to North Wales Limestone that you didn't publish. Recognition of their research and writing efforts would have been more gracious. It was these books that formed the base information source for the area, upon which you added yours. Another example of the Alan James selective facts spin in action.

Climbs on North Wales Limestone, Rowland Edwards (Cordee, 1976)
North Wales Limestone, Andy Pollitt (Dark Peak, 1981)
North Wales Limestone – 1983 Supplement, Andy Pollitt (The Climbers’ Club, 1984)
North Wales Limestone, Andy Pollitt (The Climbers’ Club, 1987)
and
North Wales Limestone Supplement, Karl Smith (Karl Smith, 1996)


Or aren't those climbers who developed the area and wrote about it worth mentioning? Next you'll be holding up 5 fingers and telling me to believe I'm seeing 4.

[Muenchener]

Would it be worth making the website links to FB & wiki open in a new window rather than redirecting?

I personally find it very rude when websites do that. I decide what windows I want open and what I want to see where, not some anonymous website owner. Opening in a new tab is just about acceptable, but new windows piss me off. 

[nai]

New tab is what I meant really, I agree a new window is pushing it but I'd rather external links not direct me away from the site I'm viewing. can't please all of the people, etc.....

[slackline]

You should be able to configure your browser to your preference.

[karl s]

Following on from Pete's most recent post, a bit more background to the Alan James "authored" guidebook in 1997. Other than seeing him once with a notepad and pencil, I don't recall seeing him at Pen Trwyn at any stage before the publication of the 1997 guide. I did receive a note from him begrudgingly saying "I suppose I owe you a copy" ; presumably this was as reward for lifting large chunks of the supplement I published to generate some money for the bolt fund.
I'd be interested to know how many other people spotted him doing "research" at the Ormes prior to the 1997 Rockfax guide. Bit of a rare species around there, I think?

[slackline]

Climbs on North Wales Limestone, Rowland Edwards (Cordee, 1976)

Could that be the source of inaccurate grades in Rockfax given the downgrades in Cornwall and Spain?

[Muenchener]

You should be able to configure your browser to your preference.

Some browsers; I can't find a relevant setting in Chrome for example. And that's beside the point: I decide whether I want to look at something in a new tab/window or right here where I am right now thank you very much, and for somebody else to attempt to make that decision for me is simply rude.

 That's enough though.

[mrjonathanr]

On first impression Rockfax's behaviour looks unabashedly parasitic, and their circumlocutions to disguise the fact mere weasel words.

The more I read - by parties of both persuasions, and on both channels  - the more that impression is confirmed.

It's a shame because bar greed there's no reason Rockfax could not publish to the benefit of both the climbing community and its business owners, instead of to the manifest detriment of the former. FWIW Alan James's excuses do seem very much an insult to basic intelligence. It all makes a mockery of the term 'climbing community'.

Put me down for a pre-order of the definitive guide if you set one up petejh, and keep at it, it's the commitment of people like yourself who really care that enables so much enjoyment for the rest of us.

[SteG]

How about linking to Llandudno webcam? http://www.llandudno-weather.co.uk/

Done, and I've fixed the outbound links on the wiki & fb links. These should now open in new tabs.

I'll speak to Pete and the nwbf peeps about pre-ordering, I think it'll be super useful.

[Luke Owens]

An update from the other channel:

Offwidth:

So given all off this good behaviour, why not extend it and talk to the NWL team? Seems to me the risk is all on their side if you turn out wrong and you can afford to clip the coverage a little.

Alan:

I have been talking to them since the middle of last week. The coverage is clipped. The donation to the NWBF is committed to.

I have said this at least three times on the thread above I think.

Have you spoke to him Pete? I went on to ask...

Luke Owens:

Alan - Can you clarify what changes have been made to the number of routes included in what areas?

Alan:

Upper Pen Trwyn - 9 out of 18 buttresses dropped
LPT - thinned
Castel y Gwynt - 9 routes down to 6
Little Orme - Dropped completely
Castle Inn - 3 out of 6 buttresses dropped
Penmaen Head - Haven't looked yet

10% page allocation to North Wales Lime which is the same as North Wales Rock.

Alan

[Fiend]

Well that sounds like actual progress.

[psychomansam]

Excellent.

Now there's just the issue of why they're publishing it at all!

 

[slackline]

Now there's just the issue of why they're publishing it at all!

Because they're a business that produces and publishes guidebooks and they think they can make a profit (and to hell with everyone else).

[petejh]

Have you spoke to him Pete? ...

Hi Luke. No Alan has not spoken to or emailed me - remember: 'since your actions with the ICO I refuse to deal with you on any topic on any level.'.
He did send an email to the person who runs the bolt fund, and to the co-author of the NW lime guidebook. In it he wanted to know how much the bolt fund spends per year so he could calculate how much of a donation to make - this donation is mentioned in Alan's news item here: http://www.rockfax.com/news/2013/06/20/north-wales-climbs-to-support-the-north-wales-bolt-fund/

Obviously the drivers behind Alan's decision to donate to the NWBF are different to most people's, but it's a positive move.
He also said they'd taken the Little Orme out of their planned coverage. Again a welcome move.
Now he's stated the Castle Inn coverage is reduced - that's also a positive by Alan.

The core of the problem remains Pen Trwyn and LPT.
Alan states '9 out of 18 Pen Trwyn buttresses dropped' - I've counted buttresses, there are indeed approx 18 (depending on definition of what constitutes a buttress), but that figure includes the quarried areas at the start of Pen Trwyn which Alan originally stated weren't being included in their coverage anyway.
It's important that Alan clarifies the number of routes they intend to include on Pen Trwyn (275 in total), give or take 15, and also to do the same for LPT (57 in total) - give or take 5.

This is simple question which could be checked and answered clearly by Alan in minutes. Page count is a red-herring in this debate, pages can contain anything from a lot to very little.


I'd also appreciate it if Alan could change the following inaccurate wording (underlined) on the rockfax news item:

This book has taken on the definitive coverage from Rockfax and, in a new development in British climbing, has pledged that all its profits will be donated to the bolt fund.

This isn't accurate. Your original NW Lime guide wasn't to be definitive, not even close by anyone's definition. That was the whole reason for us starting our guidebook in the first place.
Secondly - the 1992 and 1997 Slate guidebooks donated all profits to the North Wales Bolt fund, ne North Wales Slate fund. So there is a precedent for this type of guidebook, in North Wales at least. Our forthcoming definitive NW Limestone guidebook is just following that previous model.
(BTW, the definitive guide will also be released at the same time as an App for iPhone and Android by TheSend: http://thesend.co.uk/apps/northwaleslimestone.php - don't forget that  ).
 

The funds provided by the new definitive book may well ultimately provide some much needed cash for the North Wales Bolt Fund but this is unlikely to happen for a year or two due to the initial publishing costs needing to be met first.

I can almost feel the clenched-teeth reluctance with which that was typed.

I don't have to pay any staff (you do), 90% of the photographs used in the definitive guide have been given freely despite me offering to pay the going rate to the amazing photographers who took them, any overheads connected to this guidebook are virtually nil. Based on my low overheads and low initial outlay, printing costs and expected number of sales, the definitive guidebook should be making profit after 1 year. If I take up all the advertising being offered the book could be profitable within the first year. Thereafter it should provide a sustainable level of income for the bolt fund totaling approx £10000 over the next 15 years.
But you've overlooked (or failed to acknowledge) the most important factor - we're producing an App version of North Wales Limestone: The Definitive Guide, for iPhone and Android. This will be released at the same time as the printed guidebook. This App will be making profit from day 1. This profit will also go to the bolt fund.
I've forgotten, did I mention TheSend guidebook Apps? You should check them out, there's a free taster of NW Limestone App here!: http://thesend.co.uk/apps/northwaleslimestone.php

Of course, it shouldn't be forgotten that the definitive guide would be even quicker to make a profit if there wasn't competition from a guidebook publisher cynically purporting to be producing a 'Select Guide' which contains absurdly disproportionate coverage of the most popular NW Limestone routes.
 
You still haven't given any comprehensible reason for why you've chosen to do this Alan - why would you make what's turning out to be such an ill-judged move? The only two motives I or anyone else can come up with are: you think you will sell more books if they contain extensive coverage of three of the most popular NW Limestone crags - which, if true, exposes as outright lies everything you've stated up to now about not wanting to damage the prospects of the definitive guidebook - remember it was you who stated the area cannot economically support two guidebooks;
or,
you're sore and bitter about backing out of your NW Lime guide in 2010 and still angry with me for 'getting one over on you' by making a legitimate complaint about you to the ICO - i.e. you're doing this as some kind of retaliatory grudge and, despite giving impressions to the contrary, you always planned to try to undermine the definitive guide with your own preemptively released book containing extensive limestone coverage. If that were true it show's you up as deceptive, cynical and not giving a damn about the overall good of the wider NW limestone area.
Either of the above reasons could be true but whatever the reason is, you're screwing up yours and your company's image and reputation as a result of it.


As far as can be gathered without Alan providing clarity, the limestone route-count in the rockfax NW Climbs is still 250 out of the total 1000 routes. It works out as all the worthwhile routes on LPT, Pen Trwyn and Penmaen Head, and the most popular on Castle Inn. The only crag in his NW Lime coverage that could be called genuinely selective is Castell y Gwynt - 6 routes.

According to rockfax the NW Climbs guidebook will contain 1000 routes spread over 55 crags.

• 250 of those routes (the NW Limestone ones) are to be found on 5 crags.
• That leaves 750 routes spread between the remaining 50 crags in N.Wales. The maths would suggest these remaining 50 crags should therefore contain 2500 routes, going by the coverage given to NW lime.

Neither Andy Boorman, the co-author of the definitive guide, nor the person who runs the bolt fund wish to get involved in public online discussions with Alan. But both have given Alan their views. I don't think they'd mind me stating here that they neither of them are in favour of rockfax's current plan. Andy will post his considered view on here, but he wants to see if Alan can clarify the route count for LPT and Pen Trwyn first.


Did I mention TheSend - great climbing Apps direct to your iPhone or Android, some apps even support bolt funds: http://thesend.co.uk/   



 

[petejh]

If the previous post was too long for some - I wanted to make it clear that neither I nor the two people Alan emailed are happy with Alan's updated plans for coverage of NW limestone. The extent of coverage on Pen Trwyn, LPT and Penmaen Head is still far in excess of a normal select guidebook. 250 routes on 5 crags does not suggest selective coverage - unless Alan will clarify those numbers.

[petejh]

Exciting Updated Plans for the North Wales Limestone Definitive Guide

Authors: Pete Harrison, Andy Boorman
Due to be Published: Autumn/Winter 2013
Pre-Orders: Later in the year

North Wales Limestone, The Definitive Guide, due to be published Autumn/Winter 2013, will cover all the climbing in this huge and varied area. It will contain definitive coverage of every crag along the North Wales coast from Benllech in the West to Devil's Gorge, near Mold, in the East and taking in the superb Great and Little Ormes.

In an exciting development - inspired by the forthcoming Rockfax North Wales Climbs select guidebook, our North Wales Limestone Definitive guidebook will now contain additional extensive select coverage of the three main crags in the Clwyd Limestone area - Craig Arthur, Pinfold and Dinbren; plus a smattering of the best routes at Maeshafn and Trevor Rocks.
 
Our coverage of these crags will be 'selective' - the 'buttress count' is 50% of truly definitive coverage on these crags, but it will include every single good route on those 3 major crags so that visiting climbers get a good taster of the excellent climbing to be found in this relatively overlooked and relatively minor area. The climbing will be documented in the usual full colour eye-catching style, an App for iPhone and Android will be released at the same time as the printed guide.
 
We hope our decision to comprehensively selectively cover the Clwyd limestone area might lead to increased sales of the forthcoming comprehensive guidebook to the Clwyd area - Clwyd Limestone by Rockfax (to be published in 2014).

As is normally the case with 'selective' sections within a definitive guidebook, the choice of what to include is based as much on the crag as it is on the route itself. We tend to take the view that we include every single good route on the crags we cover, if we so wish. This decision was made following consideration of the following: economics, damaging to competitors, we're stubborn, we lack a sense of fair play towards existing ongoing work to produce a comprehensive guidebook showcasing Clwyd Limestone, we have a disregard for what happens to any routes and crags on Clwyd Limestone which we aren't including, and finally, we lack consideration about whether our actions will make it more or less worthwhile for anyone else to ever want to bother documenting all the climbing in the Clwyd area that we won't be including in our guidebook. Producing climbing guidebooks is purely a business, if you can't do it and make a profit, you're doing it wrong.

We've been busy out on the crags writing the text and getting photos of all the buttress on the Clwyd crags, we've even climbed some of the routes over the years.

North Wales Bolt Fund
Our guidebook is donating to the bolt fund, so we feel we're justified in doing this.

...


Now then, why shouldn't I actually do this? I can easily put the popular Clwyd limestone crags in our definitive guide if I want to and have it out this year. It'll sell more copies if I do - it's another USP after all. I reckon around, let me see... 250 - 300 routes out of the approx 600 on the five crags mentioned should do it.
I haven't done so out of respect to rockfax's Clwyd plans, and to the people passionate about documenting the climbing in the Clwyd limestone area. It would be detrimental to sales of the forthcoming rockfax Clwyd guidebook and it's against the best interests of climbing in the Clwyd limestone area - does this sound familiar?

[Richie Crouch]

 

[Luke Owens]

  Nice one Pete.

Fair point though, you could include the Clwyd and you'd be well within your right to do so but you haven't... out of respect, which is something Rockfax don't have, or understand!

[Will Hunt]

You li'l ripper 

[Snoops]

Do it

[andy popp]

I've spent the last couple of weeks wondering if I'd get a denial, rebuttal, or demand for retraction  (my post was pointed out by someone over on the other side) but it has happened yet.

I am staggered by Andy's revelation above. I never quite believed they just copied and pasted, but there's the proof. And doing it from an unpublished, private guide script too - well that really takes some chutzpah, and shows a total lack of respect for others (unpaid) effort.

When I first found out I managed to get Alan on the phone and demanded an explanation for how they'd got hold of my script. At the end of the call Alan asked me if I was to apologize to him.

[karl s]

In fairness, Alan James was out doing some guidebook research at Pen Trwyn today. It seemed to involve a pair of binoculars rather than rock shoes from what I could see.
Incidentally, is there a better emoticon than this one to describe Rockfax behaviour - I don't think the face-to-face, Missionary position thing really covers it.