[Oldmanmatt]

There is a bolt policy debate this Thursday for the south west in bristol.

I have said this before in the context of the Carn Vellan issue, but I think it is worth someone making the point frequently. Why are Bristol climbers setting policy for the South-West? Certainly not because of proximity. By road, Bristol is closer to Sheffield than West Cornwall. I accept that Bristol is a bit closer to Ansteys but it is still further than, say, Sheffield to Malham! Do Sheffield climbers vote on Malham issues at BMC Peak meetings: I am guessing not.

Come to meet. Tell us bristol folk to fuck off.

Well it is definitely a long way for me! But if I ever move to South Devon - and having thought hard about it for a long time, I think it is the only place in the UK I can envisage living - lobbying the BMC to set up a proper SW area would seem a good project.

On this point...
I spoke to the BMC wall rep (name escapes me, was less than helpful/interested), recently. I asked if there was a local BMC rep and his response was that "no one down there was that interested". Given their lack of interest, not surprising...
Yes, I realise I should probably do something about it, just too busy right now. If things don't change, we'll look at it again.

[chris j]

There is a bolt policy debate this Thursday for the south west in bristol.

I have said this before in the context of the Carn Vellan issue, but I think it is worth someone making the point frequently. Why are Bristol climbers setting policy for the South-West?

I mentioned this early in the thread on t'other channel when someone said discuss it at your regular area meeting and come up with a fixed gear policy. In the last 5 years I've seen one area meet advertised in chudleigh and the one in Penwith.

I trekked up to bristol once when they were talking about the Cheddar Gorge project. Beyond that looking at what's up for discussion most times I get the feeling that as far as the BMC is concerned we might as well be the independent republic of Devonistan. £30 in petrol and 3 hours round trip in the car is a long way to go for something that seems hardly relevant to climbing in Devon.

[crimp]

Let's just set the record straight here.

The last 3 SW area meets alone were:

Wareham (Dorset)
Bovey Tracey (DEVON)
Bristol.

So, whose fault is it if people in devon can't be assed to attend them? Pretty spread through region don't you think? Matt pointed out nobody down there is interested. So don't blame bristol climbers who do turn up for other peoples apathy.

Ps Matt. Good news about dog rescue.

[crimp]

Oh, and next area meet is in Pendeen.

That's the facts straight then.

[crimp]

And you can always contact Samantha Mayfield. The BMC Devon representative.

[Oldmanmatt]

And you can always contact Samantha Mayfield. The BMC Devon representative.

Is she?
I really did call the office, specifically to find out who the area rep was and was told clearly that there wasn't one.
Also, I had no clue of those meets (it's fair to say that I wasn't paying attention until now, though), although I can tell you when most of the last few NE and NW area meets were. (Thanks Shark).

It's good to see Adge promoting and promulgating on the forum. This thread and his posts have awakened me to how complacent I'd become.

[Stu Littlefair]

I find the fixation on local decisions for local climbers hard to understand.

How local do you need to be for your decision to count? Bristol doesn't seem close enough apparently. Is Exeter OK? Where does the boundary lie, or do we apply a sliding scale?

The whole locals thing is meaningless IMO, since non-locals climb at this crag too. I wager I've done more climbing at anstey's than many locals (certainly if you count by number of routes done), but now live miles away. Non-locals have a stake too.

And that is totally ignoring the arguments I've made earlier that these decisions have a non-local impact.

[Stu Littlefair]

Actually, re-reading that I realise it's too strong. Obviously, the key point is how much involvement people have with the crag in question. Locals who climb there a lot will obviously have a vested interest and an important perspective.

My point is just that non-locals often have strong connections with the crag, climb there a lot and also have a stake. To dismiss their points of view because they are "non-local" is disrespectful, I think.
!

[chris j]

Let's just set the record straight here.

The last 3 SW area meets alone were:

Wareham (Dorset)
Bovey Tracey (DEVON)
Bristol.

I was about to hold my hands up and say you got me there. But then I looked on the BMC forum on ukc, which is probably where many will look to see what's going on. Ignoring the Cornwall meets, since they appear to have de facto split off and don't advertise themselves as SW area, we have:

Bristol Apr 13, Oct 12, May 12, Jan 12, Nov 11, Jan 11
Devon Sep 12 (I'll hold my hands up to missing that one), Mar 10
Glos Nov 10
The Dorset meet in Feb 13 is on the BMC site, but wasn't promoted on ukc that I saw.

I looked further back but it was pretty much followed the Bristol-centric trend.

I'll admit to some hyperbole with my 'meet in Devon once every 5 years' but you've got to admit I'm not far off the mark! Anyway, if the SW area meet is going to be ecumenical and travel around the region more from now on then good luck with it and I'll keep more of an eye out for when it comes back this way.

[chris j]

My point is just that non-locals often have strong connections with the crag, climb there a lot and also have a stake. To dismiss their points of view because they are "non-local" is disrespectful, I think.

No, I agree, but I think it that if said non-local has such an interest then it is fairer to expect them to travel to a meeting held relatively close to said crag than to expect all the local users to trek up close to where the non-local users live. And as Adge said in relation to Devon climbers and the meets in Bristol, you're always welcome to send in your view by proxy...

[ianv]

My point is just that non-locals often have strong connections with the crag, climb there a lot and also have a stake. To dismiss their points of view because they are "non-local" is disrespectful, I think.

People from outside the area who climb there a lot, contribute to the development etc would have the same say as far as I am concerned, I would regard them as locals. My dig was as people who pop in every now and again and try to lay down the law.

[crimp]

 the south west is a large and diverse climbing area. The area meet system is not necessarily perfect for all issues. But it is currently the only thing in place really.

I would be happy to keep the SW area meets going. Maybe with sub regional, or county meets feeding into them. But this needs organising by activists in the localities.

The perceived bristol-centrist feeling is probably just because bristol climbers are more organised and active?

Go to a meet. Propose a Devon sub regional meet. Organise them. It seems like there isn't even a Devon BMC rep? Put yourself forward. The somerset rep is brilliant, sure he'd help you get started.

On the question of local vs non local input. The area meets are open to everyone. So if you feel a strong connection to any area, anybody can attend and have input, regardless of where they're based.

As i said. It may not be perfect. But it's currently what there is. And it's better to have some way of formulating regional consensus than everyone just doing their own thing. Bolt chop bolt chop bolt chop. Moan on internet.

[Oldmanmatt]

My point is just that non-locals often have strong connections with the crag, climb there a lot and also have a stake. To dismiss their points of view because they are "non-local" is disrespectful, I think.

People from outside the area who climb there a lot, contribute to the development etc would have the same say as far as I am concerned, I would regard them as locals. My dig was as people who pop in every now and again and try to lay down the law.

Yes, and Stu, I think we're agreeing with you too.

It's probably because things have been quite here for a while and we've become complacent.

There has been a sudden SW flurry on UKB, so those of us who'd drifted away from (or like me, shunned) UKC, have lost track entirely.

It suddenly seemed like we had no say, as locals; not the only voice!

It was a bit like waking up to discover UKIP had taken control of your local council...

[chris j]

Bolt chop bolt chop bolt chop. Moan on internet.

I think this last round of bolt, moan on internet & try and incite rabble to chop, discuss, has been really useful. It's dragged a lot of interested views from different parts of the Uk and world into the debate (possibly even a wider selection than to be found in a Bristol pub!) & we can pretty much take away that most think this is where the line should be drawn, Ken knows he was pushing the boundaries and now he knows what the wider community thinks and there's probably a slightly larger voice for taking out the 1st bolt on cocytus than keeping it (though both are overwhelmed by the 'we don't mind either way').

One good point for discussion would be whether the policy for Torbay in general should be to replace rotting pegs with bolts or adopt the north coast 'let it rot' or a mix and match depending on the cliff (Berry head, Sanctuary Wall in particular, no-one wants a general spreading of bolts onto them, but what to do about routes that do pretty much depend on rotting pieces of ironmongery?)

And as for the BMC, they can take away either that we feel underrepresented and we need a kick and maybe a helping hand to get off our arses and sort ourselves out, or that we are parochial luddites that couldn't give two hoots what them 'furriners' think of us and want to be left alone to manage our own affairs.  or as some bloke from Edinburgh implied on ukc 'pervert our ethics'.

[petejh]

To put it in context, North Wales has one BMC area meeting which travels around between West and East and sometimes even the badlands of mid-Wales. Similar population centres in N.Wales to in the South West. Holding a North Wales BMC area meet in Chester would be very odd.


Cornwall, Devon, Dorset and Somerset looks like a logical 'area', if you're going to define climbing by local area.

[chris j]

If you superimpose Penwith over the Lleyn it's more like holding your North Wales meet in Leeds, or possibly York...

[chrish]

The definition of a local as "anyone who can be arsed to turn up at the meeting" isn`t totally ideal, but it has worked reasonably well with the last couple of Penwith bolt debates and votes. Anyone who felt strongly about the issues could have turned up from wherever and contributed and voted. Doing an internet poll, for instance, would be less ideal IMO as it requires no real commitment.

[chummer]

I climbed at Ansteys for the first time last week, mega venue, brilliant stuff.   

I climbed Cocytus in it's present state including finishing at the first belay and the new direct finish going straight up. All very enjoyable and cool to be climbing a technical corner/groove instead of the usual walls. The new finish did seem quite logical now it's a sport route and a good contrast to the technicalities below.

However, to me it though it felt like a two star sport route at most, maybe even just the one star. Why am I stating this? Well I can see that it very probably made a better quality trad route even with the two bolts in. Yes placing the wires might have been piss when you knew the route but I bet the first time you onsighted it the nerves of the run out together with selecting the right wire and seating it, getting the draw on then clipping that while precariously balanced in that bridged position slightly run out gave the route a bigger feel than heading up to the bolts and quickly clipping the draw.

So:

Does it make a better sport route than a trad route (even with the two bolts)? I understand many say it makes no difference but are they the folk who have climbed it many times already? See my next point:

 I can't help but think that 'locals' who have climbed pseudo trad routes like this many times, often as a warm up for other (sport) routes on their local crag often seem to forget what it felt like to lead that particular route onsight for the first time, and so on their tenth time up the route with the correct wires already on their quickdraws, their placement a mere formality, the route's secrets and intricacies long gone, they think; "hmmm, what's the point in just having a couple of wires and the two bolts, may as well bolt it up, make a nice sport route, probably be more popular, my kids could have a go..blah blah blah.."

Now don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting that locals at any venue especially this one are disrespectful or ount but I do think it can be easy to get a little flippant about psuedo trad routes that you've climbed many times and I see this in our area up in N. Wales too, funnily enough often by the locals who have been around the longest. Maybe they can't be bothered taking the trad gear down to the crag and placing the all too familiar wires anymore. Again I repeat I mean no disrespect, really I don't.

As Stu pointed out, the original bolts went in on the premise that it would stay trad and now it's a nice 6b+, a trend that I see creeping in in other areas and a trend often excused by the 'popularity' of a climb now it's bolted or 'what's the point in just having a few wires, everyone knows what they are and they're placement a formality, and the other routes are mainly sport so...'

I am not local and genuinely think that although I have an opinion, that is all it is, I don't think I have a particular say on this as such and I can understand why local climbers and those who have a deep interest or association with the crag would get pissed off with folk who aren't or don't telling them what they should do to a particular route like this.

It's so hard to avoid the thin end of the wedge argument, but really how long do expect the other 'trad routes to stay that way b efore Ansteys becomes a full sport venue? Five, Ten years? I climbed Mitre, great route, really airy, not sure it needs all it's bolts but it still works, and I'm looking forward to going back for Devonshire Cream, what a line!

Just to be the classic hypocrite I thought Empire of the Sun was fucking amazing, perfectly bolted and it's new first bolt to be quite appropriate. I also thought the Might and the Main to be brilliant and nicely bolted, love the sling placement at the start.

[crimp]

Does anybody know if the cocytus Ansteys bolt controversy was discussed at the regional BMC meet last week?