[SA Chris]

http://www.climbmagazine.com/news/2013/04/vandalism-at-the-works

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/peoples-climbing-front-claim-works-chop-job

While I personally don't see the appeal behind DTing, I'm happy to accept that it floats other people's boats, and the venues used are generally good for very little else, so no real harm done.

Hope this doesn't set a trend and other venues go the same way.

(shoud this be in the "sponsors" bit?

[Pantontino]

More depressing than amusing.

Dry tooling is without doubt the best training you can do for modern winter routes (Just ask Bullock, Pete Harrison etc). It may not be aesthetically pleasing but it works and provided it occurs at suitable venues it has no impact on non-winter climbers.

Seems like there is a lot more conflict in the Lakes; here in Wales there is relatively little friction. Possibly because we have a lot of high, north facing, dank, turfy crags - i.e. perfect for winter routes.

Somehow I can't see anybody chopping the bolts at White Goods or in the Ibex bay - hope I'm right on that.

[SA Chris]

Likewise I don't think anyone would bother with Newtyle / Birnam; for a start chopping anything there would takwe a lot more effort! Not only is the "anonymous" email cowardly, but their argument is flawed; people have been scratching their way up marginal / out of condition routes long before the advent of dedicated dry tooling venues and will continue to do so whether these venues are chopped or not.

[petejh]

It sounds like The Works will be re-bolted within a week or two and no lasting damage to the venue will have been done.
I posted a reply on the ukcnts thread but as usual I got banned and my post zapped as soon as that control-freak Alan noticed me, what a cock 

A poster called 'Ex Engineer' on there pretty much summed up what I think:

'The chopper is bang out of order but he (or she) does unfortunately raise a point worthy of debate.'
Unfortunately, what I can see is that aggressive commercial promotion of dry-tooling and the presence of lower grade routes will almost certainly lead to an increase in relatively inexperienced and less skilled climbers, ....
As such, whilst I don't feel too strongly about it, the commercial overtones and evangelical nature of some involved in dry-tooling does slightly concern me.
I really don't know what the long-term solution will be, but I currently can't help thinking that anything other than dry-tooling remaining a fairly elite and minority activity will inevitably result in more classic summer routes getting trashed as 'collateral damage' '

I agree with the tone of the above, if not the exact wording - I'd question the extent of 'collateral damage', but the risk is there as was acknowledged in North Wales five winters ago when standards and numbers of winter climbers noticeably started to rise. But the destruction of people's hard effort is totally inexcusable, the guys who developed The Works choose that venue thoughtfully, as have all the dry-tool venue developers so far, and they put loads of effort and expense into it (in addition to the donated gear). I've bolted a lot and I'd seriously want to 'vandalise' any dogmatist fuckwit who destroyed my hard work. It's akin to someone knocking down your drystone wall, after you'd spent weeks grafting on it, because they didn't like man-made structures in the hills.

I love dry-tooling just as I do bouldering, trad, sport and alpinism; I enjoy it all. DT is an immensely fun style of climbing - as anyone who's tried a genuinely good dry-tooling/M-style route in Europe, North America, and now the UK, will know. However I also acknowledge that I do it partly so I can climb harder winter mixed routes in the mountains. I think it's disingenuous for dry-tooling venue developers (I am one) to pretend that dry-tooling exists in a vacuum and that these venues won't lead to any increase in climbers trying harder rocky mixed routes in winter - dry tooling will undoubtedly lead to an increase in mixed climbing standards - it's exactly the same concept as using sport climbing to get fit for trad projects.
It's this 'training for the mountains' factor that the bolt choppers are against and they have a point, albeit they made it in a moronic, gratuitous and destructive way. Dry-tooling venue developers would be wise to publicly acknowledge all the reasons they are doing it and not just the reasons which don't make people nervous, and try to educate and channel any resultant winter new-routing onto suitable projects in the mountains. Dry-tooling isn't going to disappear no matter how much people who aren't into it don't understand it. It'll never be mainstream (it's not even mainstream in Canada/France/Switzerland/Austria) but it's undoubtedly going to grow into whatever space is made available to it, because some climbers want to get fit to go and try hard mountain mixed routes in Europe and the UK, and this is the best way to do that.

Habrich/Thesiger: you might just as well say you found some climber's rejection of bouldering as a relevant form of climbing back in the day 'mildly amusing', you'd be on an approximate intellectual level.

[crimp]

I don't know if there is an agreed lakes stance on DT. there is in the south west.

There will be aberrations, like Brean down youtube DT vid. Duncan contacted the guy responsible. He not only agreed to refrain, but i notice he has also taken vid off youtube, presumably so as not to encourage others.

These are probably better ways of keeping DT in check, rather than wholesale destruction.

Then again, maybe it's more of an issue in the lakes, and things are more heated? I expect it is leaking out onto crags in some areas. Check clip below. I don't know this crag, and appearances on screen can be deceptive, but this doesn't look like a chossy hole of a crumbling quarry to me. Anyone know it?



I am also slightly taken aback at the whole rapid commercialisation, as companies get a sniff of a new market.

Best to own it. Get along to their area meet, bring it up, and get an agreed policy

[Pantontino]

Pete, perhaps you are right that more credence should be given to the charge that the growth of dry tooling crags will potentially lead to 'damage' of classic rock routes.

However, as a keen winter climber, I'm getting a bit sick of being cast as the bad guy all the time, especially when I look around and see some of the idiotic stunts pulled in the name of traditional rock climbing.

I don't know the lakes scene very well but certainly here in north wales we have got our house in order, both in terms of respecting the 'reasonable' wishes of trad rock climbers and (on an related but important note) those of organisations like the CCW who wish to protect rare alpine plants.

[petejh]

However, as a keen winter climber, I'm getting a bit sick of being cast as the bad guy all the time, especially when I look around and see some of the idiotic stunts pulled in the name of traditional rock climbing.

I agree Si, personally including spraying about hammering completely unsustainable carbon-steel replacement pegs into sea-washed cliffs at Rhoscolyn, stripping vegetation from mountain cliffs and claiming it's for some virtuous cause because it's trad routes, and creating a pseudo-sport crag out of Carreg Hyll-Drem by pegging the shit out of the majority of steep routes there and calling it trad climbing (remove them, sport grade them or bolt them is my view). But they're all individual arguments to be taken on their own merits as you know. I agree we're fairly thoughtful in N.Wales about the mixed climbing thing, I think the potential damage from dry-tooling demands a high level of self-policing.

I wonder what people will think of my recent discovery come the autumn when it's going to emerge as one of the best dry-tooling crags in Britain 

[crimp]

Will somebody a bit tech savvy please change this classic footage to sing we are the CPF (climbing popular front), intercut footage of people with bolt cutters, and repost it.

Thank you.

Someone's got to do it, Im making CPF hoodies

[Oldmanmatt]

Pete, perhaps you are right that more credence should be given to the charge that the growth of dry tooling crags will potentially lead to 'damage' of classic rock routes.

However, as a keen winter climber, I'm getting a bit sick of being cast as the bad guy all the time, especially when I look around and see some of the idiotic stunts pulled in the name of traditional rock climbing.

I don't know the lakes scene very well but certainly here in north wales we have got our house in order, both in terms of respecting the 'reasonable' wishes of trad rock climbers and (on an related but important note) those of organisations like the CCW who wish to protect rare alpine plants.

A Rightly Unconquerable argument, to be sure.
But why can't we Jack it in?

I will never quite understand why UK climbers hate each other so much.
Don't most of us do a bit of everything?

The vandalism was just that, as is gratuitous damage to any rock face or route or gear or flora.

Do we have to live in a "I don't like the way you climb" world?

Did anyone see those old clips of Gritstone climbing in Tricorn boots?

[petejh]

IHabrich/Thesiger: you might just as well say you found some climber's rejection of bouldering as a relevant form of climbing back in the day 'mildly amusing', you'd be on an approximate intellectual level.

If you insist. Doesn't seem like a very good analogy to me. As far as I recall from when that was a frequent topic at UKC, even the most strident bumbly-but-proud posturers accepted that bouldering is integral to rock climbing, however much disdain they held for beanies and "cushions".  The gulf between dry-tooling and mainstream rock climbing is much wider for obvious reasons.

It's got nothing to do with rock climbing though has it - it's a 'sport' cousin of winter mixed climbing. I think that's part of the reason climbers who don't winter/ice or alpine climb find it almost impossible to understand, including you it appears. Not everything has to relate back to rock climbing, there is another world which people dissapear into each november.

[SA Chris]

I confess my initial reaction was mild amusement.

If you insist

Careful you don't start to sound condescending.

I can accept that it's too far removed from what I do (an I do hack my way up the occasional easy winter route) for me to see the appeal, surely you can?

[Pantontino]

I confess my initial reaction was mild amusement.

If you insist

Careful you don't start to sound condescending.

I can accept that it's too far removed from what I do (an I do hack my way up the occasional easy winter route) for me to see the appeal, surely you can?

I don't think you have to be a superstar to get something positive from dry tooling either. In winter I spend most of my time on Vs and VIs and even with the small amount of dry tooling I've done I've really felt the benefit.

It expands your concept of what is possible, teaches you to be really precise and builds strength and stamina in a way that is directly transferable. There's been a few occasions this last season when I've found myself on really steep ground and felt the pump rising - I could immediately calm myself by thinking how much harder those routes at White Goods were.

So, instead of making a whimpering retreat, I shook out, hung in there and made it to the belay in one piece. Result!

(I also enjoyed the dry tooling routes themselves a lot more than I expected - some of the moves you do are just crazy.)

[crimp]

I think that's part of the reason climbers who don't winter/ice or alpine climb find it almost impossible to understand, including you it appears.

You make a lot of assumptions. I had done three alpine seasons in Switzerland and one in Nepal before I turned 21 (and, no, not as part of some guided group bollocks). I am reasonably familiar as to why people swing pointy sticks around.

Anyway, I don't think anyone really disagrees on any important issue in this thread. No-one has defended bolt chopping.

well i wish someone would start defending it.

Who am i going to sell all these CPF branded hoodies to? They're very snazzy. Says DT RIP on the back.

 

'hated on UKC' tees anybody?

[petejh]

Got any balaclavas?

[crimp]

Got any balaclavas?

yea, but they say:

PCF - splitters!

[petejh]

.. I had done three alpine seasons in Switzerland and one in Nepal before I turned 21 (and, no, not as part of some guided group bollocks). I am reasonably familiar as to why people swing pointy sticks around.
..

Yet you found the destruction of a training crag, which a group of psyched people had spent countless days/weeks cleaning and bolting and which was directly impacting on nobody, 'mildly amusing'... 

I think that's bollocks. To put it mildly.

[petejh]

If you want to pick at threads here to try and make yourself look like less of a prick then go ahead - remove the word 'yet' from my last post. It doesn't alter anything:

Finding the destruction of a training crag, which a group of psyched people had spent countless days/weeks cleaning and bolting and which was directly impacting on nobody, 'mildly amusing'...

I still think that's bollocks.

Why "yet"? I think you're making assumptions again: that someone who has messed around in big mountains at some point in their life should automatically feel allegiance to people scratching up a damp slate quarry?

And how about automatically showing some fucking basic courtesy for other people's hard efforts to create something they're really psyched about; and how about feeling it's not really right that it gets trashed by ethic police twats. It's not about 'showing allegiances'.

Sorry, it just seems a very contrived activity to me and my prejudices aren't helped by the involvement of dodgy sponsors like over-caffeinated sugary drink company back when mixed/ dry-tooling was trendy.

So this makes it amusing to you when a bunch of psyched climbers - nearly all of them amateur dudes like you and me - have their training crag trashed does it? WTF are you on??
I can only imagine you think all dry-toolers go around wearing red-bull helmets like Scott Muir did 10 years ago.

And let's be clear that "directly impacting on nobody" is not a defence typically accepted by the UK ethics police. I gave Carn Vellan as an example in my first post: a steep neglected cliff where a few people fancied doing some hard sport climbing, which was debolted by vigilantes then had its fate sealed by a BMC area committee. A sad situation IMO.

No defence against dogmatic ethics police twats who go around chopping bolts - no, it isn't. But why are you mentioning it as if it somehow justifies what you're saying - you're not the bolt-chopping ethics police. You're someone, it seems, who thinks it's amusing that people's hard work got trashed by the ethics police.

[SA Chris]

Don't over-caffeinated sugary drink company sponsor some DWS events?

[petejh]

Don't over-caffeinated sugary drink company sponsor some DWS events?

Probably Chris. Or maybe it was Red Chilli. Anyway, yes, like everyone else my prejudices are assembled in all sorts of irrational and inconsistent ways. Sorry ... can't be helped.

..but can be shown for what they are.

[petejh]

What I'm keen for is that you get called out for talking garbage, just like anybody else on here including me.
And I have posted on that thread haven't I, there's two posts by me  - the most recent was last month, since when there hasn't bee any more activity.

[c3po]

If one wants to use mountaineering as an example of 'we are the climbers who respect nature' then who leave all the crap at the base camp of Everest?

What I am getting at is; we all love climbing and yet nearly all climbing has effects on the surroundings; footpath erosion (base of most popular crags)/ rope erosion (particularly southern sandstone)/ crag gardening (sea cliffs)/ chalk (every where - Fontainebleau) / broken holds/ scratches (dry tooling crags).

Should we all pack up climbing because we all have an effect on our surroundings?

No one genre is more noble than the other, at least DT is notably restricted to un-used crags, of course the odd ignorant climber will try it some where else just as one from another accepted climbing genre will apply their ethics at the crag.

The People's Climbing Front of the Lake District state they do 'not approve of encouraging the destruction of traditional rock routes in the Lake District and questions the decision to fund the Works dry-tooling venue'.  UKC
They go on to say 'The new winter guide suggests dry-tooling will keep people off out of condition crags. There's a small flaw with this theory, it's been shown to be absolutely b******s'. UKC

There's one small flaw in their argument; was The Works a traditional rock climbing venue prior to DT?
Where is there evidence that DT has increased on the mountain crags?

Surely if one were to take such drastic action they should provide evidence for their reasoning, I'm not talking about some scratches on a crag I'm talking about evidence suggesting DT has increased on mountain crags since the boom of previously un-used quarries.

 

Ref:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=68023

[SA Chris]

Yup, as I said it reply #3. There have always been and there will always be some people who will scratch their way up marginal / out of condition routes; this discussion predates sport climbing, let alone dry tooling. The usual culprits are those who have travelled a long way and want to get up something for their efforts, and would never take any interest in some chossy DT quarry.

If there is any increase in people dry tooling their way up marginal mountain routes it is most likely linked to the popularity of winter climbing after a few great winters rather than the appearance of some bolts in a good for nothing else hole in the ground.   

[slackline]

The People's Climbing Front of the Lake District state they do 'not approve of encouraging the destruction of traditional rock routes in the Lake District and questions the decision to fund the Works dry-tooling venue'.  UKC
They go on to say 'The new winter guide suggests dry-tooling will keep people off out of condition crags. There's a small flaw with this theory, it's been shown to be absolutely b******s'. UKC

There's one small flaw in their argument; was The Works a traditional rock climbing venue prior to DT?
Where is there evidence that DT has increased on the mountain crags?

I think the ascent of 1984 in December 2012 may be relevant.  See also long protracted thread linked from bottom of article, but  in particular comments from Dave Birkett....

Climbing rock routes in conditions like these is equivalent to dry tooling. I'm aware that the photos make the crag look snowy, but most of the climbing is not visible in them. I have already spoken to Brian Davison (one of Paddy's seconds) and Paddy, letting them know my opinion and that I will be posting on here. Thanks to Brian for being honest enough to admit that the start of the route can only be described as dry tooling and that he thinks this route will probably never come into proper condition.

[SA Chris]

As has been stated a couple of times already, there is no doubt at all that some people do dry tool / climb marginal routes on mountain crags, that is a given. There are dozens of examples, going back decades.

The flaw is in trying to say there is a link from increased DT on mountain crags to an increase in dedicated DT venues, and thus justifying the chopping.

[tomtom]

Interesting... some observations..

1. Dry tooling requires quite a bit of kit - (axes, harness, ropes etc.. helmet, special boots etc..) that is not something your average punter has. Its also not going to be something Mr Average in the street would have - so its not like you're going to get loads of punters/school trips etc.. plodding up mountain crags etc.. So people doing it probably have quite a bit of mountain/climbing sense already. This makes me think that a drytooler is less likely to go and scratch their way up a classic bit of rock.

2. But some people probably will - if 0.05% of drytoolers are inclined to tool up classics in non conditions then that will happen - and has happened. So if you increase the popularity of drytooling, the numbers (very small) likely to do such daft things will also increase..

[slackline]

As has been stated a couple of times already, there is no doubt at all that some people do dry tool / climb marginal routes on mountain crags, that is a given. There are dozens of examples, going back decades.

The flaw is in trying to say there is a link from increased DT on mountain crags to an increase in dedicated DT venues, and thus justifying the chopping.

  Your flaw is not realising that I am making no claim either way, but providing/linking to one piece of evidence to help determine whether there is a correlation between the two.  More evidence will be required to determine the relationship.

Even then I don't personally think  chopping the bolts would be justified, as a better solution would be to educate.

[SA Chris]

Your flaw is not realising that I am making no claim either way, but providing/linking to one piece of evidence to help determine whether there is a correlation between the two.  More evidence will be required to determine the relationship.

  Your one piece of evidence is totally irrelevant to determining if there is a correlation. You could put up articles on Dave Mac's recent crackline on the douglas boulder, or his ascent of from a few years Anubis and they would be equally irrelevant. As I said, it's been going on on mountain routes for decades. it proves nothing.

[SA Chris]

"a body of evidence is made from individual cases" (from karma page, thanks for that btw, very mature)

But even if there is a documented body of evidence of 100s of cases, it doesn't mean there has been any increase linked to dedicated DT venues, do I need to keep saying that.

Or am i being fucking stupid. If so, explain it to me, seeing you are clearly cleverer than me.

[slackline]

"a body of evidence is made from individual cases" (from karma page, thanks for that btw, very mature)

But even if there is a documented body of evidence of 100s of cases, it doesn't mean there has been any increase linked to dedicated DT venues, do I need to keep saying that.

Or am i being fucking stupid. If so, explain it to me, seeing you are clearly cleverer than me.

Since you ask directly, yes you are (although I don't think I'm cleverer than anyone).

It goes something like this....

Document the occurrence of damage to mountain routes over time, say the last 20-30 years (quite tricky in and of itself admittedly, but no doubt more data for recent years , a start could be the UKB Wiki Dry Tooling Damage Log). 

You graph this as a bar-chart with time on the x-axis and bars showing the number of instances of damage in a given month of a year (or days if you have sufficiently accurate data).

Then you note down when the DT venues were established, perhaps as a vertical line at the point on the x-axis.

You adjust these numbers by weighting as function of the (estimated) number of participants too, to account for the increased popularity in recent years, which in itself might naturally lead to greater damage.

You could even knock up some fancy GIS maps showing this data overlaid on maps and showing the proximity of DT venues to areas where damage is occurring to investigate geo-spatial effects.

If there appears to be a greater incidence of damage per month to mountain routes to the right of this line, ie. after the DT venues were established, compared to before (ie. pre-DT venues)  then that is evidence of a correlation (but NOT indicative of a cause), and would go some way to supporting the assertion made by the The People's Climbing Front of the Lake District that DT venues increase damage on mountain routes which is how they have justified chopping the bolts.

So the flaw is that there is no evidence to support (or refute) the assertion used by the The Front of the Lake District Climbing People's to justify their actions, not in the proposal of a hypothesis that DT venues can lead to increased damage on mountains, which appears to be what you are saying is flawed, but its not, its a hypothesis and one that has been acted on by The Lake District Climbing Front of the People's in the absence of any evidence.  And the only way of testing a hypothesis is to collect a body of evidence which is made from individual cases.

Quite why you think the fact that damage occurring on mountains isn't pertinent to the discussion as its been happening for yreas I've no idea, because its the fundamental tenet behind the actions of The Front Climbing Peoples of the Lake District's.



And thats all I have to say on that.

[crimp]

Give the DTers tintern quarry i say.

 

Yes i know it's a sport crag and some people love it (Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder perhaps)

I ain't anti sport climbing, it's just a fucking hole.

I wish i could take credit for the following review, but i can't. It was an entry in someone else's blog:

"went to tintern quarry today. Just shows people will climb any old shit if you put a few bolts in it"

[lukeh]

I think dry tooling should be BANNED ... from ukb discussion. Where is the :handbags: symbol when you need it? 

[slackline]

Where is the :handbags: symbol when you need it?

[SA Chris]

So the flaw is that there is no evidence to support (or refute) the assertion used by the The Front of the Lake District Climbing People's to justify their actions, not in the proposal of a hypothesis that DT venues can lead to increased damage on mountains, which appears to be what you are saying is flawed, but its not, its a hypothesis and one that has been acted on by The Lake District Climbing Front of the People's in the absence of any evidence.  And the only way of testing a hypothesis is to collect a body of evidence which is made from individual cases.

Quite why you think the fact that damage occurring on mountains isn't pertinent to the discussion as its been happening for yreas I've no idea, because its the fundamental tenet behind the actions of The Front Climbing Peoples of the Lake District's.

Nice geekery.

I understand perfectly what they would need to do to demonstrate their actions, and they haven't been able so, so they have no grounding, and could have saved themselves a lot of bother, and you a lot of typing.

[crimp]

I think dry tooling should be BANNED ... from ukb discussion. Where is the :handbags: symbol when you need it?

come on Luke.

Stop fencesitting.

DT or not DT?

Give em tintern i say

 

[lukeh]

I think dry tooling should be BANNED ... from ukb discussion. Where is the :handbags: symbol when you need it?

come on Luke.

Stop fencesitting.

DT or not DT?

Give em tintern i say

 

Can't say I've ever felt the need nor desire to DT, but then I only brought my first walking axe this winter, maybe it'll all be down hill from here...

Doesn't mean I want to ruin others fun though. I say give em Avon Gorge. All of that scratching around is bound to get rid of some of the polish.

[crimp]

I think dry tooling should be BANNED ... from ukb discussion. Where is the :handbags: symbol when you need it?

come on Luke.

Stop fencesitting.

DT or not DT?

Give em tintern i say

 

Can't say I've ever felt the need nor desire to DT, but then I only brought my first walking axe this winter, maybe it'll all be down hill from here...

Doesn't mean I want to ruin others fun though. I say give em Avon Gorge. All of that scratching around is bound to get rid of some of the polish.

bought am ice axe? It's a slippery slope.

fair enough. My second choice venue was high rock at cheddar.

 

[SA Chris]

Give em tintern i say

 

Someone drytooling the fuck out of it might actually improve it. But probably not.

[crimp]

Give the DTers tintern quarry i say.

Creative thinking! Maybe the BMC should set up a polling structure so people can nominate cliffs as DT-only venues?

that worked well for resolving the earlier bolting/chopping issues.

Every regional crag now has an agreed fixed gear policy. Everyone seems happy.

There is also an agreed regional DT policy.

If you don't like either. Turn up at regional meet, you can vote one way or other, and even propose a motion to vote on.

[crimp]

Give em tintern i say

 

Someone drytooling the fuck out of it might actually improve it. But probably not.

 

i doubt that would be enough. Dynamite might improve it.

Never mind. I hear the owners are planning to fill it in.

[SA Chris]

I think dynamite was the cause of it being so shit. I'm no geologist, but the rock appears to be completely shattered to a fairly deep level; even removing shit rock from the surface reveals more shit underneath, unlike other quarries locally which have been quarried in a possibly less damaging nature.

It might make a nice lake, although i suspect the rock is so shattered any water will just leak out.

[fried]

I've no idea what anyone has against Tintern quarry, I've never been there but in my imagination it's a neo-classical leafy glade full of piskies.