[slackline]

As has been stated a couple of times already, there is no doubt at all that some people do dry tool / climb marginal routes on mountain crags, that is a given. There are dozens of examples, going back decades.

The flaw is in trying to say there is a link from increased DT on mountain crags to an increase in dedicated DT venues, and thus justifying the chopping.

  Your flaw is not realising that I am making no claim either way, but providing/linking to one piece of evidence to help determine whether there is a correlation between the two.  More evidence will be required to determine the relationship.

Even then I don't personally think  chopping the bolts would be justified, as a better solution would be to educate.

[SA Chris]

Your flaw is not realising that I am making no claim either way, but providing/linking to one piece of evidence to help determine whether there is a correlation between the two.  More evidence will be required to determine the relationship.

  Your one piece of evidence is totally irrelevant to determining if there is a correlation. You could put up articles on Dave Mac's recent crackline on the douglas boulder, or his ascent of from a few years Anubis and they would be equally irrelevant. As I said, it's been going on on mountain routes for decades. it proves nothing.

[SA Chris]

"a body of evidence is made from individual cases" (from karma page, thanks for that btw, very mature)

But even if there is a documented body of evidence of 100s of cases, it doesn't mean there has been any increase linked to dedicated DT venues, do I need to keep saying that.

Or am i being fucking stupid. If so, explain it to me, seeing you are clearly cleverer than me.

[slackline]

"a body of evidence is made from individual cases" (from karma page, thanks for that btw, very mature)

But even if there is a documented body of evidence of 100s of cases, it doesn't mean there has been any increase linked to dedicated DT venues, do I need to keep saying that.

Or am i being fucking stupid. If so, explain it to me, seeing you are clearly cleverer than me.

Since you ask directly, yes you are (although I don't think I'm cleverer than anyone).

It goes something like this....

Document the occurrence of damage to mountain routes over time, say the last 20-30 years (quite tricky in and of itself admittedly, but no doubt more data for recent years , a start could be the UKB Wiki Dry Tooling Damage Log). 

You graph this as a bar-chart with time on the x-axis and bars showing the number of instances of damage in a given month of a year (or days if you have sufficiently accurate data).

Then you note down when the DT venues were established, perhaps as a vertical line at the point on the x-axis.

You adjust these numbers by weighting as function of the (estimated) number of participants too, to account for the increased popularity in recent years, which in itself might naturally lead to greater damage.

You could even knock up some fancy GIS maps showing this data overlaid on maps and showing the proximity of DT venues to areas where damage is occurring to investigate geo-spatial effects.

If there appears to be a greater incidence of damage per month to mountain routes to the right of this line, ie. after the DT venues were established, compared to before (ie. pre-DT venues)  then that is evidence of a correlation (but NOT indicative of a cause), and would go some way to supporting the assertion made by the The People's Climbing Front of the Lake District that DT venues increase damage on mountain routes which is how they have justified chopping the bolts.

So the flaw is that there is no evidence to support (or refute) the assertion used by the The Front of the Lake District Climbing People's to justify their actions, not in the proposal of a hypothesis that DT venues can lead to increased damage on mountains, which appears to be what you are saying is flawed, but its not, its a hypothesis and one that has been acted on by The Lake District Climbing Front of the People's in the absence of any evidence.  And the only way of testing a hypothesis is to collect a body of evidence which is made from individual cases.

Quite why you think the fact that damage occurring on mountains isn't pertinent to the discussion as its been happening for yreas I've no idea, because its the fundamental tenet behind the actions of The Front Climbing Peoples of the Lake District's.



And thats all I have to say on that.

[crimp]

Give the DTers tintern quarry i say.

 

Yes i know it's a sport crag and some people love it (Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder perhaps)

I ain't anti sport climbing, it's just a fucking hole.

I wish i could take credit for the following review, but i can't. It was an entry in someone else's blog:

"went to tintern quarry today. Just shows people will climb any old shit if you put a few bolts in it"

[lukeh]

I think dry tooling should be BANNED ... from ukb discussion. Where is the :handbags: symbol when you need it? 

[slackline]

Where is the :handbags: symbol when you need it?

[SA Chris]

So the flaw is that there is no evidence to support (or refute) the assertion used by the The Front of the Lake District Climbing People's to justify their actions, not in the proposal of a hypothesis that DT venues can lead to increased damage on mountains, which appears to be what you are saying is flawed, but its not, its a hypothesis and one that has been acted on by The Lake District Climbing Front of the People's in the absence of any evidence.  And the only way of testing a hypothesis is to collect a body of evidence which is made from individual cases.

Quite why you think the fact that damage occurring on mountains isn't pertinent to the discussion as its been happening for yreas I've no idea, because its the fundamental tenet behind the actions of The Front Climbing Peoples of the Lake District's.

Nice geekery.

I understand perfectly what they would need to do to demonstrate their actions, and they haven't been able so, so they have no grounding, and could have saved themselves a lot of bother, and you a lot of typing.

[crimp]

I think dry tooling should be BANNED ... from ukb discussion. Where is the :handbags: symbol when you need it?

come on Luke.

Stop fencesitting.

DT or not DT?

Give em tintern i say

 

[lukeh]

I think dry tooling should be BANNED ... from ukb discussion. Where is the :handbags: symbol when you need it?

come on Luke.

Stop fencesitting.

DT or not DT?

Give em tintern i say

 

Can't say I've ever felt the need nor desire to DT, but then I only brought my first walking axe this winter, maybe it'll all be down hill from here...

Doesn't mean I want to ruin others fun though. I say give em Avon Gorge. All of that scratching around is bound to get rid of some of the polish.

[crimp]

I think dry tooling should be BANNED ... from ukb discussion. Where is the :handbags: symbol when you need it?

come on Luke.

Stop fencesitting.

DT or not DT?

Give em tintern i say

 

Can't say I've ever felt the need nor desire to DT, but then I only brought my first walking axe this winter, maybe it'll all be down hill from here...

Doesn't mean I want to ruin others fun though. I say give em Avon Gorge. All of that scratching around is bound to get rid of some of the polish.

bought am ice axe? It's a slippery slope.

fair enough. My second choice venue was high rock at cheddar.

 

[SA Chris]

Give em tintern i say

 

Someone drytooling the fuck out of it might actually improve it. But probably not.

[crimp]

Give the DTers tintern quarry i say.

Creative thinking! Maybe the BMC should set up a polling structure so people can nominate cliffs as DT-only venues?

that worked well for resolving the earlier bolting/chopping issues.

Every regional crag now has an agreed fixed gear policy. Everyone seems happy.

There is also an agreed regional DT policy.

If you don't like either. Turn up at regional meet, you can vote one way or other, and even propose a motion to vote on.

[crimp]

Give em tintern i say

 

Someone drytooling the fuck out of it might actually improve it. But probably not.

 

i doubt that would be enough. Dynamite might improve it.

Never mind. I hear the owners are planning to fill it in.

[SA Chris]

I think dynamite was the cause of it being so shit. I'm no geologist, but the rock appears to be completely shattered to a fairly deep level; even removing shit rock from the surface reveals more shit underneath, unlike other quarries locally which have been quarried in a possibly less damaging nature.

It might make a nice lake, although i suspect the rock is so shattered any water will just leak out.

[fried]

I've no idea what anyone has against Tintern quarry, I've never been there but in my imagination it's a neo-classical leafy glade full of piskies.