[gcarmichael]

Hi,

I've been training loads over the last 3 months with around five 3 hour sessions (mainly on 45 board) a week. Saw strength gains up until about a 4 weeks ago but since then it's been taking longer for me to recover between sessions, felt more tired than usual, sore throat in mornings, muscle aches and generally felt weaker and more run down.

Just wondered if anybody has had experience of overtraining and if so whats the best way to recover from it?

Any advice much appreciated,

Cheers

[iain]

Try some proper rest, like a couple of weeks with no climbing. You'll probably come back stronger from the break.

[mrjonathanr]

Proper overtraining is not a desirable condition, but it isn't easy to achieve either. Bodybuilding sites like T.Nation should have lots on this. PPOnline  is a good reference site IMO.

[masonwoods101]

Even ondra takes time off....

[scottygillery]

Right sunshine, when I was a yoot...

We used to train 8 times a day, for 3 hours, mostly on a 55, only on mono crimpers. And Big Ron told me to man up and do some press-ups, I was ashamed.

get-to it sonny jim.

[psychomansam]

Try some proper rest, like a couple of weeks with no climbing. You'll probably come back stronger from the break.

Second that. You may also be fighting a cold, which will make it worse.

Remember training makes you weaker. Recovery makes you stronger.
You're training hard, but are you recovering hard too? 8 hours sleep a night, great nutrition at the right time and no alcohol?

[Nibile]

Yes, it could esily be some degree of overtraining. Difficult sleep, higher resting heart pulse, irritability could be other symptoms.
Five three hours sessions is a lot if it's bouldering.
Maybe some professional advice on periodization could help you.

[gcarmichael]

Yeh i've been sleeping well (about 9 hours each night), not drinking much and nutrition wise i've been eating healthy and having plenty of protein in diet but not many carbs (could be part of the problem?).

Over the last few weeks i've reduced the volume to 2/3 sessions a week but it's not had much of an effect. It sounds like I need a proper rest, think i'll have 2 weeks off and see how im feeling. Definitely need to allow more time for recovery when I start training again, just got a bit carried away!

Thanks a lot for the advice guys.

[psychomansam]

It's easier and quicker to make gradual gains than it is to overtrain and recover from injury. You're young, so think about the long term. Don't let your short term passion fuck things up for you. Spread it out a bit.

As well as the rest, perhaps sack off everything indoors for a bit? Too much time training indoors is a classic mid-winter mid-england problem.

[Doylo]

 You don't need to train as much as that for power gains. Its more about quality. For ultimate endurance you need to put a bit more time in. Chill out on the training a bit and get outdoors a bit more. It ll keep the psyche up too

[abarro81]

Has the UK suddenly changed in the week I've been out of the country? Get outside more?? Isn't everything perma wet?

George - you're probably overreached rather than fully overtrained, take it easy for a couple of weeks (lower volume and intensity) and sack off dieting for that period too IMO. Probably worth mixing it up for a while too after that rather than just carrying on with the same format - maybe switch it up with some fingerboarding etc.

It's worth noting the specifics of how your body feels as it gets burnt out as the feelings/process seems to be different for different people. I find that at first I feel just as strong at the start of sessions but the length of that feeling goes down - if normally I'll feel strong for 2-3hrs I'll start feeling crap after just an hour, then 45min, then 30min.. At the same time I usually feel like I need to eat loads of sugary/high energy things to get any energy to train, but whatever I eat I still feel knackered. If I start getting like that I know I need to ease off - e.g. a couple of double rest days in a week; pushing through just means it'll take me weeks to get form back and isn't worth it.

[masonwoods101]

everyone bought a blow torch..... hahaha

[scottygillery]

at one point i had watched "The Wire" (charlie brookers a fan) for so many hours in a row i shot my mum. Now THATS over training. FACT. SCIENCE.

[Doylo]

2013s been dry!

[Three Nine]

George, as you are interested in bouldering and short routes I think you are doing much too much volume. Its taken me ages to learn that, even though it feels lazy, less really is more as far as gaining max strength + power. I would try limiting your sessions to 2hrz max.

[gcarmichael]

Cheers for all the tips. Yeh that sounds similar to how i've been lately Alex. Think i'll have two weeks off and when i start again i'll put more rest into my plan. Yeh definitely need to cut down session length for what i'm doing. Got too into the board climbing! 

Thanks again

[Moo]

your quite young gr there's plenty of time to get strong and you'll make long lasting gains very quickly at the moment. The key is not getting injured and training right not just the amount of training.

[gcarmichael]

Yeh that's true.

My plan for training in the near future involves doing sessions on a 30 and 45 board focusing mainly on small holds and will be doing periods of fingerboarding and campusing at some point as well for extra strength and power.

Step in the right direction? 

[Paul B]

Step in the right direction?

Probably not actually, not in the 'long term' anyway. Training like a beast is a great way for short-term gratification but be prepared with the fact it comes at a price, especially when teamed with non-consolidation at various grade thresholds.

[shark]

Step in the right direction?

Probably not actually, not in the 'long term' anyway. Training like a beast is a great way for short-term gratification but be prepared with the fact it comes at a price, especially when teamed with non-consolidation at various grade thresholds.

That long term can be made up of a series of progressive short term gratifications.

Nowt wrong and a lot right with a stint of intensive training on steep boards etc taking care to minimise the risk of injury 

[Paul B]

but that's not what we're reading here is it (or else the phrase over-training wouldn't be being mentioned) and thus I disagree.

People can do whatever they wish (this includes George and even Barrows) but its a bad plan to chase strength and avoid consolidation in the long run.

[shark]

Fair point.

So given that he's spent '" 3 months with around five 3 hour sessions (mainly on 45 board)" and is having a short break to recover what do you recommend after to unite strength gains and consolidation ?

[andy_e]

Climb outside a lot?

[shark]

Climb outside a lot?

He lives at the Tor and Rubicon

[andy_e]

A change is as good as a (kneebar) rest. Gritstone?

[shark]

A change is as good as a (kneebar) rest. Gritstone?

 

Whaddya reckon George ? Plenty out there for you to go at

[gcarmichael]

 

[leeroy]

A change is as good as a (kneebar) rest. Gritstone?

 

Whaddya reckon George ? Plenty out there for you to go at

i agree, whats stopping you george? 

[gcarmichael]

not as convenient when i'm at uni and i normally get shut down on it...

[andy_e]

There's another weakness to train. And I refuse to believe Burbage is less convenient than the Tor.

[gcarmichael]

Takes me twice as long to get to Burbage than the Tor when i'm at home... But during term time I live in Nottingham so dont get out in the peak that much anyway (hence the indoor training). Where as over Summer I have 3/4 months off with no uni work so tend to climb on limestone a lot. But yeh grit is no doubt my main weakness. 

[andy_e]

Ah, I assumed you lived in Sheffield...

[gcarmichael]

oh right, no i live about 5 minutes from Litton/Tideswell.

[shark]

not as convenient when i'm at uni and i normally get shut down on it...

Takes me twice as long to get to Burbage than the Tor when i'm at home... But during term time I live in Nottingham so dont get out in the peak that much anyway (hence the indoor training). Where as over Summer I have 3/4 months off with no uni work so tend to climb on limestone a lot. But yeh grit is no doubt my main weakness. 

 

Sounds like a diet of grit could be a good way forward

 

[Paul B]

not as convenient when i'm at uni and i normally get shut down on it...

this was pretty much my point, avoiding things such as this leads to a very one-sided climber and it WILL bite you in the ass at some point in the future. Also, I think its increasingly difficult to correct such things once you've learnt to pull really hard. Just my 2p though.

Anyway surely the 'yoof' of today should be mis-spending his/her time hanging off a beastmaker too much? 

[sidewinder]

On this topic, if you do have periods of time, as I do at the moment, where you have a lot of time available to train, how do you go about maximising this time, increasing the amount you can do in a week?  This is all assuming you are aiming to climb both weekend days.

It seems perhaps the amount of power training you can do in a week is perhaps limited to ~3 ~2-3 hr sessions?  What should you fill the rest of the time with.

[erm, sam]

Girlfriend, finding a job or other hobby, that sort of thing?

[abarro81]

Take up route climbing, then you get to spend hours doing stamina training.

Paul - depends on your goals. If you want to be good at everything then avoiding things will screw you over. However if, for example, you are 99% interested in limestone sport climbing then grit is pretty irrelevant. I think I'm worse on grit/sandstone now than when I climbed 8a rather than 8c on bolts. The reason I now climb harder on lime routes is precisely because I don't spend my time on grit getting good in that style and weak a lime route style, so whilst it makes me a worse all-round climber it makes me more likely to do the routes I want to do over the next few years. It would be lovely to climb what I want to on lime and be good at other styles too, but I've not got the talent/time to do that.

[joe dobson]

I've suffered from symptoms exactly like this, I found that it was because of the same reason ie lots of training and it just took its toll. I reduced the training and found I actually felt stronger afterwards.

For this reason I train heavily while at uni (sept - dec) and then take all of xmas off, I've done this a few years now and its worked well. Means you can focus on exams, eat lots of food and let any niggles/injuries sort themselves out.

[Paul B]

Take up route climbing, then you get to spend hours doing stamina training.

Paul - depends on your goals. If you want to be good at everything then avoiding things will screw you over. However if, for example, you are 99% interested in limestone sport climbing then grit is pretty irrelevant. I think I'm worse on grit/sandstone now than when I climbed 8a rather than 8c on bolts. The reason I now climb harder on lime routes is precisely because I don't spend my time on grit getting good in that style and weak a lime route style, so whilst it makes me a worse all-round climber it makes me more likely to do the routes I want to do over the next few years. It would be lovely to climb what I want to on lime and be good at other styles too, but I've not got the talent/time to do that.

I disagree with you.  Your interests are ridiculously polarised towards a very specific type of climbing and you're choosing to specialise. I may be wrong but I don't see this thread as someone choosing to specialise (looking at chosen problems/routes and rapid grade progression, I could however be wrong).

Training a lot on a board = basic and more often than not learning to be inefficient by default (to make things challenging), which (personally), I've found a huge hindrance on UK based routes. Ok, so if you have enough power you'll likely do fairly well but it's a fools game and has been shown to be thus numerous times.

My original point wasn't about making someone a good all-rounder, it was about making yourself a 'good', efficient climber. After all power is nothing without control.

[abarro81]

I agree that climbing outdoors (e.g. on lime or rhyolite) is better training than being indoors because it makes you better at climbing rock whilst getting strong rather than just making you strong. I also think that indoors it's best not to have totally dumb rules, e.g. rules about not dropping knees when it would be easier to - set the hands and feet then do the easiest method with those. I stand by the claim that grit is basically useless for lime, even vert/techy lime. Sparky and Bob will back me up on that and are less technically retarded if that will make the argument more convincing.

P.s. I don't just climb tufas or things over 45 degrees.
Just mostly.

[Wood FT]

Sparky and Bob will back me up on that and are less technically retarded if that will make the argument more convincing.

both known to be completely open minded about the Grit.....billy bollocks

in my short and relatively shit rock life I've found that the only cross over to lime is balance

George - you're not far from Staffordshire Grit (arguably the best grit) and you'd love things like Tetris and Inertia Reel trav, get to it

[shark]

"George, GEORGE..where are you??"


 

[andy_e]

My guess is the Tor or still asleep having nightmares about slopey mantelshelves....

[Paul B]

I agree that climbing outdoors (e.g. on lime or rhyolite) is better training than being indoors because it makes you better at climbing rock whilst getting strong rather than just making you strong. I also think that indoors it's best not to have totally dumb rules, e.g. rules about not dropping knees when it would be easier to - set the hands and feet then do the easiest method with those. I stand by the claim that grit is basically useless for lime, even vert/techy lime. Sparky and Bob will back me up on that and are less technically retarded if that will make the argument more convincing.

P.s. I don't just climb tufas or things over 45 degrees.
Just mostly.

What Bob "full time pro" Hickish (funded by Sparkys rent, not in that way), who travels extensively all year round? Sparky would only be relevant (sorry Mark) if he ever actually looked like he could possibly get strong enough on a board to suffer from the above.

[gcarmichael]

haha sounds like i need to be getting on the grit more, will try and find a good balance between training and getting out. In the meantime im going to rest a bit more, cheers for the advice.

[Sasquatch]

Don't let their pissing contest put you off.

Right now you're overtrained for 2 reasons.
1.  You didn't take the time to adequately build to the load you were putting on your body.  Hence your body was not trained to recover. 

2.  You spent too much time doing the same thing. 

The grit vs. lime thing is indirectly related #2, but there's more to climbing than grit and lime(sacrilege I know).  There's steep vs. slabby, there's crimps vs. slopes, etc. 

To address #1:  Your body has the ability to recover from a certain training load - this means ALL training.  Over time, you adapt to that load, add more, and your body will eventually learn to recover from the higher load.  Typical peridoization has both micro and macro cycles.  One idea is to break a training cycle down into 4 weeks, where you will increase your load incrementally for 3 weeks, then decrease load for the 4th week to recover.  The next cycle will start at about the loading of week 2 of the first cycle.  Over time, this incremental increase adds up  and your body learns to handle massive volumes of training.  This is how the pros are able to train 30-40hrs /week, but this takes years to build to that level.  As you're looking at loading, remember that both volume and intensity increase training load, so if you increase the intensity, don't increase the volume until you adapt to the higher intensity. 

To address #2:  Varying your training can help recovery by changing the focus from one aspect to another and giving the area worked a chance to recover.  For example, If you've been working straight-on 45 wall stuff, your shoulders are probably getting worked.  By shifting to balancey crimping, your shoulders wil get a rest while your hips and fingers get worked. 

[abarro81]

Don't forget in Nottingham you're not too far from Anston or presumably Forest rock. There's some more 'limey' grit not so far too e.g. River of Life

[cheque]

Don't forget in Nottingham you're not too far from Anston or presumably Forest rock. There's some more 'limey' grit not so far too e.g. River of Life

Don't forget Pleasley Vale! 

There's no excuse not to get out to anywhere in the Peak from Notts- only places like Running Hill Pits are more than 90 minutes drive away. I'm always meeting people who say "Wow, you travelled all the way from Nottingham?" and are surprised to learn that the trip was less than an hour.

When you're used to being able to pop home for lunch during a day at Raven Tor it probably seems like a long way though!

[Three Nine]

Dunno about relevance to proper climbing, but i've always found that people that climb on grit a lot are more likely to be cunts then those who don't. Therefore I think that the luck-based scrittle encourages cuntishness and is best avoided, lest you meet lots of cunts and become more of a cunt yourself.

For the avoidance of doubt, this isn't supposed to be a joke.

[Three Nine]

And before anyone points it out, I was a lost cause way before I started climbing.

[Richie Crouch]

Eloquently put 3-9! 

[Three Nine]

Grit aside, George, you ignore Bennett's point at your peril. He knows what he's talking about as far as the perils of boards go.

I'm no whiz but I do routinely burn off people out doors whose warm-ups I have to project inside. Boards definitely have a place, but there is definitely a limit to the crossover (especially for routes).

You're clearly pretty keen on advertising that you've not climbed for very long (this makes you seem like a total cock btw, which i'm sure you're not), and that suggests to me that hitting the boards twenty-fo seven is not what you wanna do at this stage in your climbing 'career'.

[Three Nine]

Quoth Moon:

"I think that young people worry too much about training and don’t climb enough. Now, I spend all my time training, but  in the early days I’d climb, climb, climb. Technique is the key; all good climbers have it, and you’re not going to get it on a campus board, or doing footless problems, or even climbing on plastic. The time to start training is when you stop improving."

[Sasquatch]

Quoth Moon:

"I think that young people worry too much about training and don’t climb enough. Now, I spend all my time training, but  in the early days I’d climb, climb, climb. Technique is the key; all good climbers have it, and you’re not going to get it on a campus board, or doing footless problems, or even climbing on plastic. The time to start training is when you stop improving."

[a dense loner]

Imagine if Tyler would have followed bens advice. Footless problems in his formative years and appalling technique led him to being one of the best boulderers in the world, who knows what he could have gone on to achieve without these setbacks

[Sasquatch]

Imagine if Tyler would have followed bens advice. Footless problems in his formative years and appalling technique led him to being one of the best boulderers in the world, who knows what he could have gone on to achieve without these setbacks

Sharma too

[Eddies]

Imagine if Tyler would have followed bens advice. Footless problems in his formative years and appalling technique led him to being one of the best boulderers in the world, who knows what he could have gone on to achieve without these setbacks

A gritstone climbing C-Unit?

[a dense loner]

Without the I