[SA Chris]

Ok. Dream of wild turkeys at red rocks is apparently very good but we never got round to it.

[tj]

Ok. Dream of wild turkeys at red rocks is apparently very good but we never got round to it.

Wasn't that taken with it, TBH. Mostly sport route after first pitch, IIRC. Obviously lots of folk seem to like it though. It's pleasant enough, just not amazing.

Some friends did Cloud Tower 12- @ RR, which is supposed to be stellar (dude). Long crack proficiency will be required, I suspect..

[tj]

Oh, and whilst I'm daydreaming at work, Risk Brothers Roof 11a @ RR is good fun, and an ameniable intro to horizontal body-length roof cracks!

moutainproject.com is a very useful resource if you're not aware of it. Don't buy the supertopos guide to RR, it's bobbins (far below their usual standards). The local comprehensive one is very good.

[Paul B]

Unfortunately I'm super topo'd for everywhere (working in a gear shop it was rude not to), although I do like a guidebook so you never know...

[SA Chris]

We borrowed the super todo for red rocks but got there the day the latest comprehensive guide ( the jerry Handren one) hit the shelves so it seemed rude not to. It's miles better.

[Paul B]

I'm really surpised in this day and age that there aren't more user-generated online topos for the US. Camptocamp serves europe well and I think that some centralised site for these things could be really useful.

[SA Chris]

Dr topo used to be really good but for whatever reason has fallen by the wayside. Was mostly bouldering and sport though.

[Johnny Brown]

If you make it to the Bugaboos must dos are N ridge of Bugaboo spire and Beckey-Chouinard. Suspect all along the watchtower might be too big for you two.

[Paul B]

we're unlikely to make it as the impact on the BMC insurance policy was just too great (you can't have Alpine cover for just a portion of any given trip, i.e. $$$).

[duncan]

Red Rocks

Crimson Chrysalis - 5.8 but very straight-forward. VS climbing really with bucket-loads of exposure but well-bolted. One for your Dad? Can be abseiled on a single 70m rope.

I enjoyed Wild Turkeys.



Yosemite

Braille Book (5.8 ) is a nice intro. to Yosemite with a bit of wide on the last pitch to keep it interesting.

Royal Arches (5.7) is a fun morning too - shouldn’t take more than a couple of hours, much of it is scrambling - and you can use it to recce the decent from Washington Column/Astroman or as an approach to the amazing Crest Jewel (5.10a) on Quarter Dome.

Arch Rock and Cookie Cliff are good places to learn the trade / get spanked.  You have to do Nabisco Wall twice so you include Butterballs (5.11c) as well as Wheat Thin (5.10c).  Think of Henry Barber climbing the  former with Hexes and Stoppers in 1973. Now that’s manly gear.

Another vote for Moratorium (5.11b) on Schultz's Ridge.

I really enjoyed the Middle Cathedral routes, shady, knobbly, flakey granite that feels a bit more like normal climbing. Away from the Central Pillar of Frenzy (overrated) and East Buttress (great but popular) the routes tend to be run-out however so possibly not a general recommendation. Quicksilver (5.9 / E2) and Freewheelin’ (5.10b / E3) epitomise the style. DNB (5.11a but only one hard move / E3) is a great long day out, the scene of numerous benightments apparently. 

West Face of El Cap (5.11c).  “I thought it was one of the best I've done in Yosemite - the rock is much more featured than the usual glassy granite - like a giant Welsh E4.” Shark thinks more like E5. Either way, a fantastic route.

A problem with Yosemite is the guidebook situation is dire. The Reid guide is 20 years old and was sketchy even then. Supertopo has a very limited selection and the approach and decent information are not that super either. It really helps if you have someone familiar with the area in tow on many routes. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of gems scattered around that hardly anyone climbs now because they are not in rockfaxsupertopo.  Who has done things like Spideman or Vanishing Point (Sentinel Creek) except perhaps tommy and TobyD?

[slackline]

A problem with Yosemite is the guidebook situation is dire. The Reid guide is 20 years old and was sketchy even then. Supertopo has a very limited selection and the approach and decent information are not that super either. It really helps if you have someone familiar with the area in tow on many routes. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of gems scattered around that hardly anyone climbs now because they are not in rockfaxsupertopo.  Who has done things like Spideman or Vanishing Point (Sentinel Creek) except perhaps tommy and TobyD?

I've lent Paul my copy of this 1977 classic...



(picked up in a second hand book store in Daytona, FL seven and a half years ago).

[jwi]

Indian Creek
I intend to read this months Climber and extract the relevant info but I'd be grateful of recommendations across the board.

I must recommend mine and Alf's route of course...    Two camalot #6 should be enough for the second pitch. (The second pitch is really, really good but I doubt it will get more than a repeat every year.)

Less facetious recommendations:

Hands:
Incredible handcrack
Luxury liner (a.k.a. Supercrack of the desert)
Blue Sun


Big hands
Steve Carruther's Memorial (close to 50 m)
Dead Crow (PG13, about 45 m, there is a "secret" extension if you are up for some awkward off-width)
Think Pink

Thin hands:
Wild Cat
Pente
9 lives
Scarface
Slot Machine

Thin hands/fingerstacks
Way Rambo
Slice and dice (pure fingerstacks for me)
Sacred Cow (same, but I have very thick fingers/hands and for some this is a pure thin hands crack)
Coyne Crack
Double Bock (short fierce section of ring-locks)

Fingers
Johnny Cat
Hydraulic Pump (fingers crux, then mostly lay-backing, bump gear for glory)
Power Line (but PAINFUL! small feet help)
Gurkha (big fingers help)

Off width
Big baby (the guidebook is dangerously wrong: camalot #6 mandatory for the last bit)
Serrator (quite easy, good introduction to Leavittation, probably only 5.10/+)
Big Guy
etc.... (they are all good)


Mixed sizes
Big cat
Dos Hermanos
Anunnaki
Dancing Queen


Laybacks
A list for when you want some fast and easy ticks:
Battle of the Bulge
Tips Lie Back
Layaway plan

[Paul B]

As ever, thanks for all of the information offered. The below list (I'm turning into R-man), couldn't possibly be a ticklist but it should allow us to pick and choose based on recommendations. Thanks. Hopefully when we're back I'll have amassed enough knowledge to be of use to others planning similar 'holidays'.

Eldorado Canyon
The Naked Edge (5.11b)
Rosy Crucifixion (3 pitches, low .10)

Longs Peak

Rifle

Black Canyon
The Scenic Cruise (5.10+)

Moab
Fine Jade (5.11a)
Ancient Arts (5.8 / A0) *
Primrose Dihedrals (5.11c / A0) *, **
Lightening Bolt Cracks (5.11)
Castleton Tower, Kor/Ingalls (4 pitches, low .10) ... if you're quick, can be combined with Fine Jade in a day
Sister Superior, Jah Man (5 pitches, mid .10)
Standing Rock, Kor route (4 pitches, high .10) ... truly amazing, the definitive desert tower, but hard to access: ideally charm a local to join you

Zion
Monkey Finger (5.12b / C2)
Shune's Buttress (5.11)
Sunlight Buttress, Kolob Canyons (5.11b) **
Tricks of the Trade (5.10+) **
Space Shot (5.6 / C2)
Moonlight Buttress (5.9 / C1)
Sheer Lunacy (5.9 / C2)
Kolob Canyons (Zion) - single pitch basic sport climbing

Indian Creek

Hands:
Incredible handcrack
Luxury liner (a.k.a. Supercrack of the desert)
Blue Sun

Big hands
Steve Carruther's Memorial (close to 50 m)
Dead Crow (PG13, about 45 m, there is a "secret" extension if you are up for some awkward off-width)
Think Pink

Thin hands:
Wild Cat
Pente
9 lives
Scarface
Slot Machine

Thin hands/fingerstacks
Way Rambo
Slice and dice (pure fingerstacks for me)
Sacred Cow (same, but I have very thick fingers/hands and for some this is a pure thin hands crack)
Coyne Crack
Double Bock (short fierce section of ring-locks)

Fingers
Johnny Cat
Hydraulic Pump (fingers crux, then mostly lay-backing, bump gear for glory)
Power Line (but PAINFUL! small feet help)
Gurkha (big fingers help)

Off width
Big baby (the guidebook is dangerously wrong: camalot #6 mandatory for the last bit)
Serrator (quite easy, good introduction to Leavittation, probably only 5.10/+)
Big Guy
etc.... (they are all good)

Mixed sizes
Big cat
Dos Hermanos
Anunnaki
Dancing Queen

Laybacks
A list for when you want some fast and easy ticks:
Battle of the Bulge
Tips Lie Back
Layaway plan


Red Rocks
Levitation 29, Oak Creek (5.11) ** - avoid in high winds
Cat in the Hat, Mescalito (5.6) - to do with my Dad whilst he's 'in town'
Epinephrine, Black Velvet (5.9) **
Dream of wild turkeys
Risk Brothers Roof 11a
Crimson Chrysalis - 5.8 - with Dad, looks much better than CITH?

Bishop
My ticklist is pretty sorted for here but I'd be interested in sub 7A problems that aren't too steep (or high).

Needles
Sirocco, Sorcerer, East Face of the Warlock (5.10a) **
Romantic Warrior, Warlock, (5.12b or 5.10 A2) **
Don Juan Wall
Atlantis
Fancy Free
Love Potion No. 9
Thin Ice (4 pitches, low .10 in theory though has a mad Quarryman style chimney pitch that's unrateable)

Tuolumne Meadows
Regular Route, Fairview Dome (5.9) *
Shipoopi, Medlicott Dome (7a+) * - glance sideways at the Bacher Yarian
Eichorns Pinnacle
Lucky Streaks, Blues Riff, Black Angel, Tuolomne. - caution on this one.

The Incredible Hulk
Red Dihedrals (5.10b)
Positive Vibrations (5.11a)

Smith Rocks
???

Leavenworth - to break up the potentially long drive North.

Squamish
The Grand Wall (5.11/A0) *, **
Exasperator (5.10c)
Crime of the Century 5.11b ish
Penny Lane 5.9
Partners in climb .10c
Climb and Punishment 5.11a
Angels Crest 5.10b - classic long 'un
Daily Planet, North Walls, Squamish (take as many 1.5 friends as you can find).

Yosemite
Northeast Buttress, Higher Cathedral (5.9) *
Serenity Crack + Sons of Yesterday, Royal Arches (5.10d) *
Snake Dike, Half Dome (5.7) *
Regular NW Face, Half Dome (5.10a / A1) *
The Nose (5.9 / A2 or 5.10 A1) *
Astroman, Washington Column (5.11c) *, **
East Buttress, El Cap (5.10b)
Separate Reality (5.12a)
The Nabisco Wal, Cookie Cliff (5.11a) ** (Butterballs (5.11c) as well as Wheat Thin (5.10c))
The Rostrum (Alien finish?), (5,11c) **
Moratorium (5.11b)
Braille Book (5.
Royal Arches (5.7)
Quicksilver (5.9 / E2)
Freewheelin’ (5.10b / E3)
DNB (5.11a but only one hard move / E3) - long
West Face of El Cap (5.11c)

Others
Wunsch's Dihedral, Cynical Pinnacle (5.11b / A0 ) **
All along the watchtower, Bugaboos (5.10 / A2) ** - likely too long, most appealing line on this whole list still!
N ridge of Bugaboo spire
Beckey-Chouinard
The Vampire, Tahquitz Rock (5.11a) **
Yellow wall, The Diamond (factor in altitude)

* Parois du legende tick
** Fifty favourite climbs tick

[SA Chris]

I can't remember if mentioned elsewhere but check access to needles before heading there. I tried in late may and couldn't get to trailhead because of snow. And the short route up the pass round to bishop was closed too so a long detour back the way I came. Same may apply for access in eastern sierras.

There are other great routes in Eastern sierras. Fishhook arête on mt Russell looks very cool but if you have super topo guide for the area you know this. Permits can be tricky to arrange though esp for Whitney

[Paul B]

Might have already said this but: in the Moab area I would make sure you do a few towers before you go to Indian Creek. Two reasons: 1. the crack grading at IC seem much less generous than on the crack pitches on the tower routes, so you might get put off trying some tower routes unnecessarily; 2. my sense is that the classic towers would fit better with your aspirations ... you might regret spending too much time at IC.

Also Mill Creek just outside Moab is brilliant - pocketty sandstone face climbing that is very atypical of the area.

The weather hasn't been too kind thus far making towers (everything really) quite a challenge. We arrived in Indian Creek about a day or so ago yet with the poor forecast (it snowed last night) most people have left which is making pooling pro quite tricky.

Any recommendations for routes that'd be 'ok' on a double set of cams (up to 4 with a 5 and a 6) would be very much appreciated. Thus far we've only been able to do a few of the intro routes and Nat isn't entertaining the idea of walking two cams on long slings for a whole pitch.

In reality we wanted to do Lightening bolt cracks and move on but there's currently a reasonable amount of snow on the 'talus' and summit.

[jwi]

The guidebook should give some indication of required rack, no?

Problem is that most “easy routes” are bound to be mostly sustained cam#2/friend 2.5/3.  Routes that require only 2 of each are pretty much bound to be 5.11 or harder, since they will have more than two body-lengths of an awkward size.

There are a few 5.9 that require a small rack but I cannot remember the names, sorry.

Railroad Tracks 5.10 on Battle of the Bulge Buttress is nice, but hard to start.

Fat cat 5.11+ on Cat Wall should be OK with 2 of each.
Dos Hermanos 5.12- on Donnelly Canyon for sure.
Anunnaki 5.11+ on The Optimator too.
Dancing Queen 5.11+ on The Wall for sure.
Gurka 5.12- on Reservoir wall.

[Paul B]

The guidebook should give some indication of required rack, no?

We've got the select Desert rock (Fred Knapp), so yes but most (select routes) require a bigger rack

Thanks.

[jwi]

T-bones tonight, 5.12- @ second meat wall, is a really nice lieback and should be OK with 2 of each.

[Paul B]

Well, the weather has been unseasonally hot it seems.

We had a short while in Eldo, then it snowed.
A decent amount of time picking off some fine desert towers
A few days in Zion
A wedding
Followed by a week of being baked in Red Rocks...

and now we're facing a little bit of a dilemma (poor us I hear you cry), basically we've got a few bits left on the list in Zion that it'd be good to do (one in Kolob canyons) , but unfortunately its looking like upwards of 25'c.

The other problem is that in the other direction there's Yosemite and camping looks to be an utter ball-ache (lots of the walk-in sites don't seem to open until at least Jun).

I'd welcome any suggestions/opinions on playing the camping game in Yos. especially with regards to sites where you can sleep in your vehicle.

It turns out (probably rather unsurprisingly) that the amount of rules and regulations here makes van living a little less easy than in Europe and likely, you'd be better off at all times with a car (4WD) and a tent.

[benpritch]

http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/upperpines.htm

upper pines is a nice site. open from march. you can van it there.

have fun and congrats on marriage

[chillax]

Pretty sure camp 4 is open? Or is the issue that you don't have a tent? Living in a van in Yosemite is almost impossible outside of upper pines. The rules and regs do make the place a massive ballache at times.

[SA Chris]

You could always go into Wal-Mart and buy a cheap tent? Or would you need to buy stacks of other camping paraphernalia too?

[tesla]

I expect you'll be coming up 395? Tioga pass opened yesterday I think, but I don't see that the NPS site has been updated yet.

You can park up and sleep in a couple of places just outside the park; it's somewhat of a pain to drive in, although that depends where you're going, and, well, it's free so you can't really complain...

East Side:

Down by where Highway 395 meets 120 / The Tioga Gas Mart aka Whoa Nellie Deli, see 'Utility Road' (parallel to 120) which has some free BLM-land camping spots. Whoa Nellie Deli has pretty good food (I know it looks like a petrol station, that's because it is - but you'll have to trust me on that).

There are other spots further up 120 closer to the park entrance that are free, or some established campgrounds which are often less busy than the valley. It's maybe 40 minutes to Tuolumne from here, about 2 hours to the valley floor.

Rough area map here: http://goo.gl/maps/nLa8s

On the West side:

There is a free U.S. Forest Service / BLM (Bureau of Land Management, aka public land) camping spot on Highway 120, just before the Big Oak Flat park entrance at Hardin Flat Road, about 30 miles from the valley. As you drive east on Highway 120 toward Yosemite, go past the first Hardin Flat Road turnoff, there are more camping spots at the second Hardin Flat turn off. I think it's fine to stay for a few weeks at a time, but note that you need fire permits (which are free from the Stanislaus Ranger Station on Highway 120.). I've only every stayed overnight. It gets busy on weekends.

This map shows the general area of the Hardin Flat road (not an exact camping spot): http://goo.gl/maps/Hs4MH

The warnings about bears and food should be heeded: don't leave food in your van, use the provided bear boxes or leave it outside in a suitable container.

Mammoth Lakes is quite a nice, semi-civilized place to stop on the way up 395 (after Bishop, before Yosemite). There are lots of campsites dotted around Alpine lakes. Also, some nice bouldering up at altitude in the forest, where it's cooler (and midgier this time of year).

If you plan to visit the Bay Area at all and want advice on what to see / where to go drop me a PM.

[Paul B]

You could always go into Wal-Mart and buy a cheap tent? Or would you need to buy stacks of other camping paraphernalia too?

We'll need to buy a few bits and bobs anyway (if we get the chance to get on something big [we'd hoped to have had a few 'test' walls under our belt by now]), so maybe...

have fun and congrats on marriage

Cheers Ben!

[SA Chris]

+1 on the wedding. Congratulations, hope you had a great time and Vegas met expectations. In hindsight I wish we'd done the same when we were there.