[Paul B]

I feel I ought to remind you that this is the guy that used a knee-bar on a pinches wall eliminate, unashamedly.

[Doylo]

I feel I ought to remind you that this is the guy that used a knee-bar on a pinches wall eliminate, unashamedly.

Even i don't agree with that 

[dave]

I feel I ought to remind you that this is the guy that used a knee-bar on a pinches wall eliminate, unashamedly.

HOLD THE FUCK ON - why did nobody think to mention this earlier?

[Bonjoy]

From a style point of view - don't you think the obvious challenge inherent in those boulder problems is the continual effort from start to finish hold?

I've always thought that one of the caves biggest selling points is that, unlike a lot of hard lime venues, the classic problems are not eliminates. Let's keep it that way. Drawing up new rules to 'preserve' old beta would ruin the place.
This all reminds me of Sissy Crag in Sydney. I saw it in OTE as a youth and thought it looked amazing. Then when I turned up at the crag and the locals told me of the 'no heels rule', my estimation of the place tumbled. The rock was still cool, but the locals had managed to spoil the place nonetheless with their idiotic diktats.

[abarro81]

Looking at it from a pragmatic viewpoint - why don't you work your weaknesses in the cave instead of reinforcing your 'resting' strengths just to take a 'soft' tick? Your weakness obviously being strength and not endurance.

If I wanted to work my weaknesses I wouldn't go to the cave. I've been going to the cave for fun and to train for trying abyss next year, which includes getting good at using knees. Would you b happy if I downgraded DC to 8a and Greenheart to 7c+. No soft ticks then.

From a style point of view - don't you think the obvious challenge inherent in those boulder problems is the continual effort from start to finish hold?

Yes. That's why I downgraded them to reflect the new level of challenge.


Pinches wall is the best place for knees. My plan worked too - the tor gods have been angered and soaked the crag before Stu could do Evo and Bob had a chance to come back and do Devo, thus making me happy

[abarro81]

p.s. I'm really bad with those picture words - that took me a full minute to work out. I'll find the tipex.

[petejh]

Looking at it from a pragmatic viewpoint - why don't you work your weaknesses in the cave instead of reinforcing your 'resting' strengths just to take a 'soft' tick? Your weakness obviously being strength and not endurance.

If I wanted to work my weaknesses I wouldn't go to the cave. I've been going to the cave for fun and to train for trying abyss next year, which includes getting good at using knees.

Would you b happy if I downgraded DC to 8a and Greenheart to 7c+. No soft ticks then.

Good at bouldering strength too then, wow.

I'm honestly not interested in whatever grade you've given whatever it was that you've climbed - I have no idea what you've done in there other than Lou Ferrino? Has there been some kind of rubber knee'd rampage going on? I don't do facecrook etc etc. And I find it funny that I've picked up the tab from some on here of 'grumpy local' as if I'm some advocate of cave bouldering which as anyone who knows me would find pretty funny as, despite living 5 minutes away, I have close to zero emotional attachment to the cave having been about 6 times in the last 18 months. This time of year I start training for mixed climbing and might have a dabble in the cave if I get inspired for something - want to do LF, maybe I can borrow a couple of knee pads. I just genuinely find it odd that anyone would actively choose to climb in a sloth style for fun.

[Nibile]

After watching Alex's video, I needed to purify my dirty soul, and went in my board room to worship the sacred image of Malc's One Armer hold.
Despite this, I think that knees and knee pads are just another personal choice of climbing style, personal, not worse or better. Personally I don't like them and I wouldn't use them, but that's me, and sometimes I feel I'd be happier to rip the holds from a problem than to climb it. 
The way a problem was firstly climbed has a lot of importance to me, and I tend to distinguish, more and more often, between climbing and testing myself. The two things not always coincide, and I choose my climbing approach accordingly.
So, again, just a personal choice.

[abarro81]

You're being a dumbass for the sake of it now, it's all gone a bit ukc 

Good at bouldering strength too then, wow.

My point was that the cave is basically a long problem venue on steep ground - it suits my strengths. There are only about 3 hard short problems I can think of (crucial, louie armstrong, that new cjd one) so if I wanted to work my weaknesses I'd go bouldering at the tor. Or I'd work them when I train and just climb for fun outside. (Or, if you're thinkinf of my comment about training for abyss -  if I were training for a route that suits me my training would involve doing things that were in that style. Perhaps not the best idea for long term improvement but I'm not so bothered if it gives me a decent shot at climbing that route next year.)

I'm honestly not interested in whatever grade you've given whatever it was that you've climbed

Then why the comment about "doing it for a soft grade"? Presumably just to piss me off. I'm not really pissed off - I'm psyched with doing those links and if anyone wants to repeat and downgrade from my guess that's cool.

want to do LF, maybe I can borrow a couple of knee pads.

Like I said, I doubt the rest is worth it on LF

it's blatantly now a 7B+ boulder problem with a full hands-off rest and cup of tea in the middle.

I presume that was a throw away comment, but that rest is pretty 'active' - I certainly can't be chilling for a cup of tea and it  makes my head hurt.

I just genuinely find it odd that anyone would actively choose to climb in a sloth style for fun.

My style is slow irrespective of knees or not, which probably accentuates how it looks. I just climb in whatever way I think it's easiest to get up the route/problem/traverse I'm trying. Maybe I shouldn't shake out on staminaband because climbing slow is crap?  Presonally I fucking love rests, love shaking out, love upsidedown knee bars, love doing moves off knees etc. Moves off knees are well interesting, a whole new set of body positions and moves to play with.

P.s. I'll leave it to you to email Graham and Pringle to tell them they should go back to wheel of life without pads, not to mention Derailed and the groove DG does in Swiz on Dosage

The way a problem was firstly climbed has a lot of importance to me, .......
So, again, just a personal choice.

Indeed. For me I don't care how those cave links were first climbed - I just want to climb them.

[andy_e]

[tim palmer]

Surely this could be applied to 95% of threads? 

Why not give two grades for the problems in the cave as knees do appear to significantly alter the difficulty and character (and quality?) of the problems

[SA Chris]

I missed all this over the weekend, but there are some strong feelings of deja vu reading this. Surely we could just cut and past all the comments made in the thread shark started a few month ago and save a lot of time. Not much new ground covered.

[Fiend]

P.P.S. I'm bored now and I just spent 20 minutes writing that when I should have been doing eccentrics and plugged into and EMS. You fuckers ruined my training.

Don't worry if 5.10 bring out a more pimped up kneepad you won't need that extra little bit of strength will you...

I vote for two grades if people are that concerned about knees from a stylistic point of view - it works for the BMC guides with micro-routes/highballs.

[tim palmer]

I missed all this over the weekend, but there are some strong feelings of deja vu reading this. Surely we could just cut and past all the comments made in the thread shark started a few month ago and save a lot of time. Not much new ground covered.

I would disagree, I think the ethos of bouldering is very different to route climbing, secondly the mecca knee bars don't really drastically change the way 90% the route is climbed whereas the knees in the cave have a huge impact on the climbing and finally if the thread is of no interest to you don't contribute.

[Johnny Brown]

This thread is outrageous, sexism at its worst. If Barrows was a bloke no one would have batted an eyelid. You people!

[turnipturned]

Surely this could be applied to 95% of threads? 

Why not give two grades for the problems in the cave as knees do appear to significantly alter the difficulty and character (and quality?) of the problems

Palmernator- lets not forget this is a dark damp cave perched above Llandudno with tampons sticking out of it.
 
Effort Barrows, after swallowing my pride (of little I have) your vid is cool and it is very impressive. I guess kneepads are here to stay, and us kneepad haters should stop being so bitter and get better at climbing (and get longer legs).

Two different grades seems (gay) but sensible to me!

This new guide book is going to be halirous. Louis Ferrino (without knees)= 7c+ (with knees)=7c (campus)=8a (without one pocket)= 7c+ (without one pocket, without knees)= 7c (without any pockets, with knees)= 8a  (without any pockets, without any knees, in your underpants and one shoe)=8b

Good luck to the sucker who has nominated himself to write it!

[abarro81]

Maybe we should rename things with knee pads. Initial suggestions: bigger butt, poo ferrino, halfway scouse, broken fart, token wigger

[turnipturned]

Or someone stick a bolt somewere near the start of Trigger cut. Then you can carry a rope with you and have a route grade!!! Problem solved, best get your drill out doylo!

[ali k]

What a joke. Alex climbed these problems in the way he wanted / that suited him. And good effort for finding the 'rests' I say! He was completely open about the way he climbed them and fully admitted it dropped the grade (for him) using that method. Beyond this...who cares?

And now he's being forced to defend himself?? WTF?  I hope it's all tongue-in-cheek.

As for kneepads changing the game. Yes, obviously they help, albeit only at certain times on certain routes/problems. Just like wearing specially designed climbing shoes, and later sticky rubber, as opposed to hob-nailed boots made it easier. And the 5.10 pad is obviously a step up from a beer towel taped round your leg, but it's hardly going to get out of hand and evolve suction cups, is it? And as for separate grades with and without pads/kneebars...

[carlisle slapper]

Is this not just a case of juggy roof climbing in juggy roof climbing shocker? The features have always been there so shame on people for not using them, its not a board. There's so many hard problems in the UK which will never be knee barred it shouldn't be an issue. Never mind in such a manufactured climbing hovel. Choosing not to use easier beta is always there but you don't deserve a harder grade for being more technically dense, you don't see many people dynoing Brad Pit and taking 8B or even doing trigger cut its original way Cassidy did it with LH to the shot hole. The only reason i can see this happening is because its the cave and people treat it more like a wall than a crag.

Knees can also create amazing sequences at the (blunt uk version of the) cutting edge, e.g Dandelion Mind or like Si said, The Natural Method. Even Sidekick on the stone where knees are just one option but they dont make it way easier. If people dont use knee bars outside they'll never know what's possible when developing new problems with them. Knee bars can be really hard when used with shite angles. And some problems may never be possible without them.

If a problem is juggy enough to use your knees on and you're disappointed by people using knees on it, man up and go and climb something blanker or quietly suck it up and climb it a harder way which is more fun to you. There're only a handful of hard problems which can be used with kneebars, and its hardly like loads of people are clamouring to repeat fingery/ pure power hard classics or develop hard and blank new stuff in wales.

I've missed loads of tricks when putting up new problems before that doesn't mean people have to do it my way. Ned used a high heel on bigger belly when he repeated it, did i ban it? no. is he much better technically then me at spotting these things? yes. and he's flexible enough to use them. The way he did the Bitch with the high heel removes all the fingery climbing from it, but the heel is only useable because he's bloody good with them and so its still easier for most people to do it the fingery way. The best climbers will exploit any weakness in the rock, if you want to be a "good" climber nowadays its worth getting strong in more ways than just front on crimping, as pretty soon (i hope) there'll be problems going up which need everything just to stay on. Even if that means ending up dressing like a human condom and slithering round the rock on the odd problem. Barrows you should do a knee barring tour of the UK wideboyz style take it to the next level. Indian face with kneebars!

[nik at work]

Wot he sed 

(How has this run to 4 pages?!?)

[Jaspersharpe]

Wot he sed 

(How has this run to 4 pages?!?)

 

No idea. I said my bit about this daft issue on this thread.

[SA Chris]

I think everyone did. Doesn't mean they can't say it again. And again.

[Stu Littlefair]

Please god, let this thread die.

[SA Chris]

Yup. Log pile?