[petejh]

7C+. Even though with hands-off rest it might now take as long to climb as some 7c+'s   

[tomtom]

Instead of lanky could we use the term 'non hobbit' instead?

[Stu Littlefair]

Is this really happening? Are people in Wales really so rain sodden and befuddled they think using bits of rubber on your knees is an issue?

So, trigger cut is easy now. Deal with it and move on. Or, up your aspirations and start thinking of the link-ups.

For what it's worth the comparison to heel spurs is over-wrought. The point about heel spurs is that you could rest almost anywhere with them. kneebars are not in the same league.

Also, kneebars are cool - so the great thing is that all the problems in the cave just got *better* (as long as you're tall enough). Shouldn't you all be celebrating?

[Doylo]

Rubber kneepads are not a new thing but now they're being manufactured so are more widespread. For some people they make some climbs easier. Kneebars are really cool. That's it really. Most stupid debate for a while...

[Stubbs]

In which case Lou Ferrino can not be 7C+. it's blatantly now a 7B+ boulder problem with a full hands-off rest and cup of tea in the middle.

Have you watched the vid?  Do you think you will find the problem easier having to invert like that?  I know I wouldn't!

As Stu said the heel spur comparison is inaccurate; kneepads don't allow you to get a hand off rest whenever you want.  Mixed climbing has other problems, like having to regulate axe lengths, etc.

[Moo]

There is nothing wrong wrong with knee pads.

[account_inactive]

I object to Stu saying something is cool.....WTF does he know about cool 

[petejh]

Is this really happening? Are people in Wales really so rain sodden and befuddled they think using bits of rubber on your knees is an issue?

So, trigger cut is easy now. Deal with it and move on. Or, up your aspirations and start thinking of the link-ups.

For what it's worth the comparison to heel spurs is over-wrought. The point about heel spurs is that you could rest almost anywhere with them. kneebars are not in the same league.

Also, kneebars are cool - so the great thing is that all the problems in the cave just got *better* (as long as you're tall enough). Shouldn't you all be celebrating?

The idea is almost exactly the same as the heel-spur, only the situations where you can use them are different. In each case you're attaching something extraneous to your body over-and-above what people have climbed the route/problem with previously. Not just a shoe improvement or liquid chalk to think of two obvious examples - it's a whole new piece of equipment.

And I don't think I'm saying it's really 'an issue' in the negative sense of the word - I'm pissing myself at people getting all defensive of the knee-padage. I'm just pointing out the obvious that at the moment expensive knee-paddage is something extra to what a lot of people would consider their normal bouldering gear, and that they make some 3D cave problems easier than they used to be - I don't think that's controversial is it? It goes without saying (so I'll say it) - climb however you want as long as it doesn't damage anyone else's experience. Personally I think anyone who thinks that this:



is a better style of bouldering to aspire to than this:


needs their style-radar examined for faulty wiring.

One is an inspiring, fluid, power endurance font 7C+ boulder problem with no respite until the finishing hold , the other is rubber-clad slothing around nonsense which I honestly think just looks a little bit shit, especially on such a cool pure line as LF. But if that's the way these sorts of problems are going then I'll be buying two Stealth knee-pads like everyone else just so I can do it the easiest way - I don't care that much I'll just follow the rubber-sheep.

[Stubbs]

I think you may have lost some credibility by describing a problem in a quarried limestone cave with at least two manufactured holds as 'pure' 

I look forward to hearing back from you after you've tried this new beta as to whether you found it easier... 

I see two videos of people playing to their strengths to get up a problem, which I think is to be applauded.

[Serpico]

It seems that pad-o-philia is rife amongst many climbers I once respected. Let's out them now and strike their ascents from the record books.
Filthy Heel-hookers are no better either.

[Boogster]

Say in the future a material is invented that is flexible/durable enough to be used to manufacture gloves of use for climbing, what would people's reactions be?
As for the 'minimum effort' argument; isn't there an alternative that says bouldering is climbing as hard as possible with the minimum aid required? Realistically speaking, that means shoes, perhaps some chalk, and a thick-ish teatowel. Who's to say that's not an equally valid aesthetic?

/drivel's advocaat

[Stu Littlefair]

Why the shoes and chalk?

[Fiend]

As for the 'minimum effort' argument; isn't there an alternative that says bouldering is climbing as hard as possible with the minimum aid required? Realistically speaking, that means shoes, perhaps some chalk, and a thick-ish teatowel.

Pads, starting pad, doormat/carpet square, toothbrush, yard brush, brush on a stick, stepladder, chalk bucket, chalk bag, liquid chalk, anti-hydral, sandpaper, fingertape, edging shoes, smearing shoes, heel-hooking shoes, toe-hooking shoes....beanie...

[Bonjoy]

But if that's the way these sorts of problems are going then I'll be buying two Stealth knee-pads like everyone else just so I can do it the easiest way - I don't care that much I'll just follow the rubber-sheep.

 So a problem gets scores of ascents from people copying each other's beta. Then one guy breaks ranks and works out a different way that is better for him and all of a sudden he and anyone one who capitalizes on his effort is a sheep?  Seems to me more sheep-like to carry on doing it 'the old way', just because that's how it's always been done, that's what the book grade is for and a bunch of grumpy locals don't think you look as cool.
 The fact is naysayers will just have to learn to suck it up because kneepads are only going to get better, cheaper and more ubiquitous. Just like sticky rubber and pads and chalk did. In five/ten years time boulders will routinely think with their knees, just like we do now with our heels (also considered an unsporting deviant contrivance back in the day). You can go with it, or try to hold out like some kind of modern day clean-hand gang.

To illustrate the arbitrary nature of the objections to decent kneepads consider this. Bare (shaved?) legs have very good friction and don't slide like trouser clad legs. Kneebarring onto bare legs is very effective for the few goes it takes you to get massive bruises. In your utopian future where climbers all eschew the kneepad in favour of the firm clean thigh, what will you make of someone doing a bareleg version of Barrows' sequence? I suppose it will be ok because he's taking the pain?




WARNING EXTREME TANGENT AHEAD: Come to think of it the symmetry of sticky rubber shoes and kneepads is very strong. Bare feet versus shoes is much like bare leg versus pad and sock clad foot versus boot is much like trouser clad knee versus pad. So thinking it through, the advantage conferred to a knee by using a pad is nigh on exactly the same as the advantage conferred to a foot by using a boot. It's just less obvious because people usually climb in trousers but rarely climb only wearing socks on their feet.

[Doylo]

I think bouldering with your eyes open is plain cheating

[Fiend]

Surely it is the thin end of the wedge though.... 

[Boogster]

As for the 'minimum effort' argument; isn't there an alternative that says bouldering is climbing as hard as possible with the minimum aid required? Realistically speaking, that means shoes, perhaps some chalk, and a thick-ish teatowel.

Pads, starting pad, doormat/carpet square, toothbrush, yard brush, brush on a stick, stepladder, chalk bucket, chalk bag, liquid chalk, anti-hydral, sandpaper, fingertape, edging shoes, smearing shoes, heel-hooking shoes, toe-hooking shoes....beanie...

Yes, yes, I know there's a ton of other paraphernalia involved, some if it more useful than others. But surely it's not unreasonable for people to suggest an arbitrary limit to the amount or quality of said paraphernalia, similar to those limits that exist in every other sport I can think of. After all, it's a sport, and a sport is basically just a set of rather bizarre rules delineating a particular form of physical exertion. Or something.

[Kingy]

Re comment about gloves for climbing, i thought maybe a stealth rubber glove would work, especially on slopers but it would be difficult to put on securely without gluing it onto your hands and unless the rubber was extremely thin, u wouldn't be able to crimp small holds with rubber on your fingertips as you probably couldn't feel the holds. For jams, I think a rubber glove has already been tried with some success and already perhaps sold commercially i believe

[dave]

madrock used to make some finger jimmyhats - never saw anyone using them though.

[Kingy]

Check these out:

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/rubber-crack-gloves/107750560

Looks a bit rum to me! 

[petejh]

You can pick holes in my argument all night long because it's as full of them as a padless trouser leg. But so is everybody else's. The most important bits of this debate are:

the starting point of every type of climbing (and every sport, blah blah blah) is arbitrary, therefore we get to decide where that arbitrary point begins.
and
style matters (to me, and I bet lots of others too).

I reckon Edlinger would have pissed himself laughing at people hanging upside down in caves like modern-day rubber vampire bats, trying to find stasis on power endurance boulder problems instead of just making moves and, you know, climbing.   

[abarro81]

Alex - would you be able to kneebar the problems in the cave without using big rubber mats strapped to your legs?

I don't know, I've not tried. I would certainly still do trigger cut with the kneebar if I wasn't using a pad, same for the knee I use on the move on LF near the start. As bonjoy said, if I were doing that I'd probably use shorts and chalk a thigh. The rest would still be available without pads, maybe not no hands, I'd have to try to know - if it's not no hands it would be more hassle than it's worth given the time spent climbing into and out of it.

The rest almost certainly wouldn't be worth it on Ferrino by the way - if you can get to that point with enough beans to comfortably climb into the rest you shouldn't have an issue finishing the problem, it takes 3 moves to climb into it from a point 4 moves from the end of the problem. I did the LF sans RH pocket eliminate after finding the rest but didn't bother with it as I didn't think it was worth the hassle. It's only worth it on the links out of LF - director's, dorsal fin, incredible bulk etc. Fortuantely the pilgrimage sequence leads you away from it too, so although you could get into it I don't think it would be worth the effort.

Also, kneebars are cool - so the great thing is that all the problems in the cave just got *better* (as long as you're not a dwarf)

Too right. Knees are the new 1-5-9.

Personally I think anyone who thinks that this:
[Fatty on DC]

is a better style of bouldering to aspire to than this:
[LF vidl]

needs their style-radar examined for faulty wiring.

One is an inspiring, fluid, power endurance font 7C+ boulder problem with no respite until the finishing hold , the other is rubber-clad slothing around nonsense which I honestly think just looks a little bit shit, especially on such a cool pure line as LF.

If you want PE problems then don't try problems with no hands rest on them  . I'm a route climber - I like rests, I'm not going to avoid them because you think shaking out is shit to watch. (p.s. just for fun I should point out that since fluid and power endurance are the same in this climbing context your statement is basically just "I like power endurance problems not endurance problems, and I find this more inspiring. Plus Alex climbs like a slow fat c*nt which looks shit." Whilst the latter part is true, your point is basically pointless).


A crack climber told me 'jammies' are nice to train in but poor for actually doing hard stuff.


P.S. Yeah, those people hanging upside down trying to rest, I hate them. I went to Malham and there was Steve hanging upside down on Overshadow and Stu hanging by his knees on Bat Route. What idiots they looked like. Next they'll be using a knee on Revelations, Jerry would never have done that.


P.P.S. I'm bored now and I just spent 20 minutes writing that when I should have been doing eccentrics and plugged into and EMS. You fuckers ruined my training.

[petejh]

Routes aren't bouldering and aren't relevant to the point I'm making. Pointless points.

I don't think you're fat, or a cunt.

Do routes then... I don't get it?


Similarly bored, thanks for sharing.

[abarro81]

Routes aren't bouldering and aren't relevant to the point I'm making. Pointless points.

So different 'rules' for how you can climb on routes than for boulders? That sounds wacker than wack; wacker than you ever can imagine wack...

Do routes then... I don't get it?

I can't, it's too cold and all the routes are wet. Plus we don't have many routes in that steep, 3D style that I love.

That wasn't me being stroppy and insinuating I thought you thought I was a fat cunt - though I did just eat a \pretty big pizza.

[petejh]

Ok, Alex - you're a really good climber and you know how to train, as do I but at a much lower level. Looking at it from a pragmatic viewpoint - why don't you work your weaknesses in the cave instead of reinforcing your 'resting' strengths just to take a 'soft' tick? Your weakness obviously being strength and not endurance.

From a style point of view - don't you think the obvious challenge inherent in those boulder problems is the continual effort from start to finish hold?