[dave]

There's nothing more hilarious than the transparently desperate revisionist-rule axegrinding of someone scarcely able to come to terms with the fact that someone else has found a better sequence on a problem than you have.

[Duma]

^ This is all that needs to be said on this topic. Get a grip people, or climb barefoot and without chalk and tape.

[moose]

Aren't you all forgetting the traditional saying "the best climber is the one who's having the most fun with no knees or heels ".

[Jack.G]

Thanks to all of the responses for lots of work distracting thought. All mention of "pad" below is in reference to the 5:10 Stealth Pad.

Maintaining the trad ethic of repeating a problem in the same or better style than the FA, the use of a Pad is a lesser style.

It is acceptable for pads to be used for pushing the limit, but with the intention of progression and the goal of bettering the original effort.
Natural Method in this style is "only" 8b+ and not cutting edge, after seeing the vid, it totally could be done sans pad, just not by Dave at the moment and the use of the pad has taken it down to his level. It's a very cool problem none the less.

Hands-off rests have no place in Bouldering

I you want to fanny around upside down in a cave with two knees pads on as a training for sport, go for gold, what ever gets you off and your having fun. Dont spray about it as it does de-value the original efforts and future inspirations.

All that said, I now have a pad in the post and will put it to some use to get a better feel for the potential overall impact. I am sure everyone that has posted has had experience with one ?

[abarro81]

You are such a douche I don't even know where to start.

[Doylo]

You're crazy pal!!!
First troll for a while...

[Jack.G]

Thanks guys, really constructive 

[tomtom]

Thanks guys, really constructive 

Sorry - hard to be constructive about your (self confessed) mini rant..

Maybe have a cup of tea and listen to some relaxing music?

[Doylo]

And offer us more insight on how we can preserve the trad ethic in bouldering..

[Stubbs]

I think the issue is that you have decided that using a pad is a lesser style and no one agrees with you.

[Fiend]

Is it better to work a problem sans-kneepad, or flash it with a kneepad??

[petejh]

I'm only a part-time boulderer unlike you die-hards. Be gentle on me. This knee-pad debate is almost a carbon-copy of the debate that went on during the early noughties around Canada, the US and Swiss/Austria about the use of heel-spurs in mixed climbing. Anybody wanting to get a better insight on whether or not knee-pads should be considered fair game in bouldering really should read Will Gadd's two articles for a broader and very relevant context.

Basically substitute the word 'heel-spur' for 'knee-pad' and you have the debate:
Spurs are for Horses
http://www.gravsports.com/Gadfly%20Pages/spurs_are_for_horses.htm
and
Gadd's excellent blog page on spurless/spurs grade comparisons for the cutting-edge routes of the time, with links to more info:
http://gravsports.com/Gadfly%20Pages/gadfly20058.htm - That graded list is very relevant - you could knock something up for Parisella's quite easily.

finally, a good overview of legitimacy in mixed climbing, which could be applied to any form of climbing really:
http://www.rockandice.com/articles/how-to-climb/article/907-rip-mixed

I think this comment sums up how I personally feel about how I want to set the arbitrary style goalposts for climbing's different games:
Alpinsim (from Gadd): 'Last year two of my friends, Ueli Steck and Conrad Anker, both climbed Everest without oxygen. That’s where the bar is now (and realistically has been for 30 years), buck up.'
Sport climbing, for me, would be something like - try to avoid pre-clipping too high (sometimes I fail), don't extend the lower-off down to the last good hold, don't grab the lower-off (with rare exceptions). Kneepads may reduce the grade and are a step backwards in style from previous ascents - actually on reflection not sure if I care as much about pads on sport routes as on bouldering, don't know why.
Trad - don't pre-place gear for headpoints unless it's just about impossible to place on the lead, don't place any more pegs (relics of the past and a step backwards in style).
Bouldering - kneepads are like heel spurs, they reduce the difficulty of the problem beyond the previous style of just using chalk and shoe rubber. I wouldn't want to climb a classic problem with knee-pads any more than I'd want to climb a hard mixed route with heel-spurs: because it's a step backwards in style. Buck up, when men were men etc 

Some other views explaining why heel spurs died a death around 2005:
http://sportandmixedclimbing.com/mixed_issues/NEW_LeBlanc_spurs_NEW.htm
http://www.climbing.com/news/m13-repeated-twice-2/

[Fiend]

Kneepads may reduce the grade

But what's the problem?

Will Gadd wrote an article listing grades for ascents with heel spurs and ascents without and everyone stopped using them because they wanted the grade...<snip>....You're still climbing the same line it's just easier so take a lower grade.

It's about climbing the line in the most efficient style using the most suitable equipment (whether that's chalk or sticky rubber or RPs or cams or mats or...etc). More efficient = easier climbing ( = easier grade) which is a good thing.

[petejh]

If you're going to quote please don't take it out of context - 'Kneepads may reduce the grade' - I then went on to say I don't feel the same way about kneepads on routes as on boulder probs.

It says a lot about the style of climbing in the cave that kneepads are so useful there - i.e. they're basically power-endurance problems, a route grade would be appropriate for the longer links.

The 'most efficient style' argument is a red-herring. The whole of climbing could be reduced to finding the best equipment to most efficiently cover the terrain if we truly believed that was the ultimate aim. Those aren't the rules we want to play by though are they. Or I could cover director's cut far more efficiently then Alex Barrows ever could by using axes and wearing fruit boots on my feet (please nobody do this). One move for every four of his.

[Davo]

Having read the thread I am not sure I see the issue to be honest. As others have said knee-pads seem no different to me than other technology such as chalk, bouldering pads etc... Personally it would seem strange to ban or frown upon using a particular part of your body whilst climbing.

The only thing that upsets me is that I have completely missed out on using what is in hindsight a completely obvious technique in somewhere like the Cave. Yep, the grades will be different but again I don't see an issue, if the first ascentionist uses a method that is later found to be not the most efficient then the grade is normally adjusted accordingly. I think Trigger Cut is a fair point as the original method by Chris Davies is not the one used by most people. Using pads on that problem seems no different. Obviously if anyone wishes to spurn the pads then that is up to them and they can have whatever grade they want for it.

Also knee-pads won't transform every problem just ones where knee-bars are available. There are plenty of problems or routes out there where there are no knee-bars and p[ads will not affect them. It just means that from now on I personally will be aware of the benefits of another climbing technique that may enable me to get to the top of a problem or route. To say knee-pads are cheating you may as well say that heel-hooks are cheating or that putting more rubber on the upper part of a shoe to help with toe-hooks is cheating.

I can see some linkage with the heel spurs thing in mixed climbing but am not really certain it is the same. Although I have very little ice climbing experience so it is difficult to be certain. Also knee-pads as I have said before won't work in all situations and will only affect certain types of climbing e.g. the cave where it is very 3D.

I personally have a knee-pad and have used it (specifically in my failed attempts On Mecca). Yep it does make the route easier (for me) but it would seem bizarre to spurn the knee-bars as they are usable with or without a pad and the pad simply makes them very secure. I have previously (like most perople!) used knee-bars on all kinds of routes and many times got hands off rests - I just didn't have any rubber on my knee! So I don't really see an issue.

To be fair aeshetically I would prefer not to use them as i would feel like a beast and could ride around on my high horse and generally look with down with disdain upon the weak who feel the need to take weight off thier fingers!

Cheers Dave

[remus]

Thanks to all of the responses for lots of work distracting thought. All mention of "sticky rubber" below is in reference to the 5:10 Stealth rubber.

Maintaining the trad ethic of repeating a problem in the same or better style than the FA, the use of sticky rubber is a lesser style.

It is acceptable for sticky rubber to be used for pushing the limit, but with the intention of progression and the goal of bettering the original effort.
Natural Method in this style is "only" 8b+ and not cutting edge, after seeing the vid, it totally could be done sans sticky rubber, just not by Dave at the moment and the use of sticky rubber has taken it down to his level. It's a very cool problem none the less.

Sticky rubber has no place in Bouldering.

If you want to fanny around upside down in a cave with sticky rubber on as a training for sport, go for gold, what ever gets you off and your having fun. Dont spray about it as it does de-value the original efforts and future inspirations.

All that said, I now have sticky rubber shoes in the post and will put it to some use to get a better feel for the potential overall impact. I am sure everyone that has posted has had experience with one ?

[petejh]

Just to be clear, I don't see kneebars as the same argument as heel-spurs, of course kneebars are legit. It's the new knee-pads which have recently become popular and which Doylo rightly points out are 'game-changers' which are a very similar argument to heel-spurs in mixed climbing.

Alex - would you be able to kneebar the problems in the cave without using big rubber mats strapped to your legs?

[Fiend]

It's not a red herring, it should be obvious I meant in the context of normal rock climbing, not mixed or aiding or whatever. Yes "bits of rubber on knees" is a fairly arbitrary line in the sand but it's obviously a lot bloody closer to sticky rubber shoes than it is to ice axes.

Edit: Re kneebars vs kneepads, where do you draw the line with homemade kneepads?

[Nigel]

Surely we're past all this? Would Ondra use kneebar/pads? Yes of course, ergo they are fine because he is God. The whole reduction in difficulty thing seems a similar thing to the whole gritstone "death E grades" vs "highballs with ten pads" that gets people worked up about "not accepting the challange". Its nonsense - if you want to feel like you're going to die then climb on North Stack not Burbage. Same thing with bouldering; if you want to do a fucking hard move then go and do one, there's plenty about, and stop whinging if the odd move gets bypassed with a kneebar because fact is its an obvious technique for climbing roofs. I.e. man up and get on Johnny G's Pill Box problem or something.

RE the cave in particular, a lot of those kneebars are only available to the tall. But like Bonjoy says life ain't fair. Don't we just call people lanky pricks and move on?

[petejh]

In which case Lou Ferrino can not be 7C+. it's blatantly now a 7B+ boulder problem with a full hands-off rest and cup of tea in the middle. I'm sure we're all happy about that? 

[Fiend]

Why would anyone not be happy?? 

[petejh]

Rhetorical question. I'll let someone else answer it.

...Same thing with bouldering; if you want to do a fucking hard move then go and do one, there's plenty about, and stop whinging if the odd move gets bypassed with a kneebar because fact is its an obvious technique for climbing roofs. I.e. man up and get on Johnny G's Pill Box problem or something.
RE the cave in particular, a lot of those kneebars are only available to the tall. But like Bonjoy says life ain't fair. Don't we just call people lanky pricks and move on?

No, 'somebody' re-grades the cave for the easiest method and we move on - if the consensus decides that the easiest method includes strapping rubber pads to your legs, then them's the new 'rules' from now on. Likewise for other cave bouldering - could the stuff in the cave at The Tor be tamed in the same manner?

[Davo]

In which case Lou Ferrino can not be 7C+. it's blatantly now a 7B+ boulder problem with a full hands-off rest and cup of tea in the middle. I'm sure we're all happy about that? 

I don't personally have a problem with that. I did it the old way but am okay with the fact that there is a new sequence. I shall still keep my own personal grade, makes no difference to me. Am keen to check out the new sequences. Might mean that I stand a chance on some of the other link ups.

[Wood FT]

Surely we're past all this? Would Ondra use kneebar/pads? Yes of course, ergo they are fine because he is God. The whole reduction in difficulty thing seems a similar thing to the whole gritstone "death E grades" vs "highballs with ten pads" that gets people worked up about "not accepting the challange". Its nonsense - if you want to feel like you're going to die then climb on North Stack not Burbage. Same thing with bouldering; if you want to do a fucking hard move then go and do one, there's plenty about, and stop whinging if the odd move gets bypassed with a kneebar because fact is its an obvious technique for climbing roofs. I.e. man up and get on Johnny G's Pill Box problem or something.

RE the cave in particular, a lot of those kneebars are only available to the tall. But like Bonjoy says life ain't fair. Don't we just call people lanky pricks and move on?

+KRS1

[Fiend]

The whole reduction in difficulty thing seems a similar thing to the whole gritstone "death E grades" vs "highballs with ten pads" that gets people worked up about "not accepting the challange". Its nonsense - if you want to feel like you're going to die then climb on North Stack not Burbage.

One of the weirder things about that era was not people not accepting pads, but people not accepting how the change of style made such a difference to the grades and being so desperate to cling on to their numbers, a concept that seems even more risibly antiquated and outdated now - I mean can you imagine people trying to cling on to (as per pete's example) Lou Ferrino being 7c+ for their heavily kneepadded restathon cup-of-tea ascent 

Then again as per pads one can readily choose to do it in the old style for one's personal challenge and pleasure (like Keenus)