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Kids and injury split from Ashima(mini)wad (Read 6582 times)

shark

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Kids and injury split from Ashima(mini)wad
November 21, 2012, 10:19:01 am
I am always curious that her mother never seems to feature in any videos or photos. I like to think she may be one of those mad education-obsessed Japanese women (I know one well ...) and is fretting all day that Ashima is squandering her youth on climbing when she could be rote-learning math problems or chained to a piano like a normal Japanese child ...

Looking at her bone her way across the crimps on Crown of Aragon whilst astonishing also makes me wince at the same time.

It is hard to square with the advice on preventing damage to growth plates in kids. 

robertostallioni

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the advice is massively generalised, as it has to be to include 17 year olds just starting climbing, 15 year olds wanting quick fixes and mini wads like Ashima with 1000's of hours climbings time behind them. The only ones who can modify/limit what climbing these kids do are the parents(or in some cases the coaches) so you'd hope that if they are not following the "guidelines for under 18's" they know their charges very well.

shark

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the advice is massively generalised, as it has to be to include 17 year olds just starting climbing, 15 year olds wanting quick fixes and mini wads like Ashima with 1000's of hours climbings time behind them. The only ones who can modify/limit what climbing these kids do are the parents(or in some cases the coaches) so you'd hope that if they are not following the "guidelines for under 18's" they know their charges very well.

The findings by Audrey Morrison was I understand mainly based on the Austrian youth team who presumambly received expert coaching/guidance too.

I don't want to be too precious about it - injuries happen at all ages - but as a parent/coach where do you know where to draw the line on something that is going wrong on what I assume you can only identify with an MRI scanner however "well you know your charge" ?

SA Chris

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Is Obe her full time coach / mentor / guru / Mr Miyagi?

robertostallioni

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The findings by Audrey Morrison was I understand mainly based on the Austrian youth team who presumambly received expert coaching/guidance too.

indeed, but its blanket advice for everyone, hence the "generalised" comment.

 
Quote
I don't want to be too precious about it - injuries happen at all ages - but as a parent/coach where do you know where to draw the line on something that is going wrong on what I assume you can only identify with an MRI scanner however "well you know your charge" ?

Personally I'd be more likely to let them campus earlier than biological 18 if they had a high volume of fingery climbing behind them, and training through growth spurts was carefully monitored. That feels like it makes sense to me. Won't be an issue in the short term, but I'll certainly be interested in any further finding over the next few years.

shark

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Personally I'd be more likely to let them campus earlier than biological 18 if they had a high volume of fingery climbing behind them, and training through growth spurts was carefully monitored. That feels like it makes sense to me. Won't be an issue in the short term, but I'll certainly be interested in any further finding over the next few years.

Makes sense and ties in with what Audrey said:

Quote from: Audrey Morrison [url=http://www.thebmc.co.uk/should-u18s-use-campus-boards
www.thebmc.co.uk/should-u18s-use-campus-boards[/url]]
Fingers stop growing around biological age 17, just after the final growth spurt in adolescence when 20% of final adult height is achieved during this time.

This growth spurt occurs from around age 12-13 for girls, and 13-15 for boys.

Connective structures need to be weaker to accommodate this developmental growth spurt, Stress fractures tend to coincide with the adolescent growth spurt, and more so in lean athletes.

In climbing these fractures tend to be in the fingers. Males around age 15 seem to be especially susceptible to finger fractures as the new levels of testosterone helps build significant muscle (which also makes it harder for them to resist intensive forms of training!). (see pic of x-ray above)

During this growth spurt, a few essential kilos of new bone growth, muscle development and fat (essential for female maturation) are put on. Young climbers must not wear any weights while climbing under the age of 18 as developmental growth has already made a provision for this.

Because the growth plates are the weakest areas of the growing skeleton - even weaker than the nearby ligaments and tendons that connect bones to other bones and muscles - they are vulnerable to injury.

Fiend

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This whole featherweight fearless kids tick big numbers leaves me invariably cold, but that's a pretty nice video, she seems like a sweet kid and has awesome shorts, I hope they stay as her trademark  :2thumbsup:

Jaspersharpe

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I did absolutely loads of pull ups and various monkeying about on fingerboards which makes me wince to think of now (campussing hadn't been invented then) from about 11 or 12 years old and never got injured........ so it's obviously fine.

Seriously, what Bob said.

robertostallioni

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how about loads of weighted campussing till 13.  :popcorn:

shark

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how about loads of weighted campussing till 13.  :popcorn:

I've got a 3 kids I can experiment on. Surely one will make it through without injury?

Just talking about this shit makes me want to go and do some weighted hangs ...but..must..take..another..rest...day  :spank:

John Gillott

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I am always curious that her mother never seems to feature in any videos or photos. I like to think she may be one of those mad education-obsessed Japanese women (I know one well ...) and is fretting all day that Ashima is squandering her youth on climbing when she could be rote-learning math problems or chained to a piano like a normal Japanese child ...

Looking at her bone her way across the crimps on Crown of Aragon whilst astonishing also makes me wince at the same time.

It is hard to square with the advice on preventing damage to growth plates in kids.

Shark - what makes you wince, that she does that series of moves or that she's done the training to get to that point? For any young climber pulling to the point of failure on small holds is a pretty normal thing to do, surely?

Paul B

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I've got a 3 kids I can experiment on. Surely one will make it through without injury?

From what I've heard that's the current Austrian approach!

shark

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Shark - what makes you wince, that she does that series of moves or that she's done the training to get to that point? For any young climber pulling to the point of failure on small holds is a pretty normal thing to do, surely?

Why? Because crimping is an aggressive grip and its been shown the damaging impact high intensity finger work has on growth plates and causing fractures. Of course her mass is low and she's used to this sort of work but the risks of long term developmental issues are still there.

John Gillott

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I can't see why crimping small holds in itself should be a worry. Like Jasper, my memory of youthful climbing is of crimping, without warming up in my case, and never injuring myself even when I tried the smallest holds and pulled to failure. I can't get away with that now. That's just another single anecdote of course. In general is the research showing that intense exercise is inherently wrong, or just that it has to be managed carefully? We discussed this on here before I think when the BMC guidelines were first published. The focus then was campusing in particular. Kids are getting into climbing in increasing numbers and the BMC among others is organising teams and competitions. Many kids will want to win these comps. What's the advice to them - ignore that strong child over there who's winning everything, they've trained too hard? Or never mind Ondra and Ashima who trained hard from an early age? Sensible training is one thing, but non-intense training in general? Sounds like a non-starter to me.

shark

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I can't see why crimping small holds in itself should be a worry. Like Jasper, my memory of youthful climbing is of crimping, without warming up in my case, and never injuring myself even when I tried the smallest holds and pulled to failure. I can't get away with that now. That's just another single anecdote of course. In general is the research showing that intense exercise is inherently wrong, or just that it has to be managed carefully? We discussed this on here before I think when the BMC guidelines were first published. The focus then was campusing in particular. Kids are getting into climbing in increasing numbers and the BMC among others is organising teams and competitions. Many kids will want to win these comps. What's the advice to them - ignore that strong child over there who's winning everything, they've trained too hard? Or never mind Ondra and Ashima who trained hard from an early age? Sensible training is one thing, but non-intense training in general? Sounds like a non-starter to me.


Of course you only get to see the successful as the injured never make the news. Its an issue to common to most sports where kids are performing to a high level. There's also a spectrum in those who are prone to injury and those who arent - kids and adults. I don't have a fixed view but there's a lot of contradictory messages out there. In some ways I'm glad that climbing isn't my kid's main sport. 

andyd

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My query would be more about letting kids be kids and letting them enjoy their childhood. Hueco is a great place to take your kids to run around and have an adventure. If you take them there to climb, take them there to enjoy the camaraderie of climbing with friends. The video makes it look, although it may not be the case, as if she's taken to the hardest (not necessarily best/beautiful/fun) lines and coached into climbing them. It made me wonder who wanted her to send CoA the most.

marky8b

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Interesting topic... A really good article (and book) here about US gymnastics and how they have changed their coaching attitudes to developing athletes http://www.slate.com/blogs/five_ring_circus/2012/08/01/u_s_women_s_gymnastics_team_2012_the_little_girls_in_pretty_boxes_generation_takes_home_gymnastics_gold_.html

I think the key word when working with kids is "development" not just the coaches ego (or parents) about winning at all costs...

a dense loner

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No offence meant here andy but that's probably why most climbers have heard the name ashima and none know the name andyd's kid

I can't remember how kids think but I'm pretty sure some will think I want to be able to do something no one else my age has done as well as some of the kids thinking I want mummy and daddy to stay together as well as some kids thinking I want to go to mcdonalds

Monolith

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...and some thinking I'm fucking glad Lee Anderson isn't my dad  :-*

Jokes aside, I know it'd be the other way around. They wouldn't be able to handle your mono routines.

Richie Crouch

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Or rigorous standing on the spot high left foot stabs to polished foot jibs!

a dense loner

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What ave them 2 posts got to do with anything? Get the topic back on track pls

hobblingfool

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When I’m watching the youths at the local bouldering wall the main thing I think when they are training hard is do they have any talent/natural ability to pull hard? As a climber I have virtually no natural talent but tried as hard as I could as a teenager which got me to around 7B outside without any injuries. At the same time on the other side of the world Mr Sharma was also trying as hard as he could but because he was monumentally talented he could pull on silly small holds and manage wild moves. I’m not sure the amount of effort put in was vastly different (And no I’m not bitter :)). I was pulling at my limit on fingerboards, campus boards and boulder problems and so was he. I see super talented youths on steep hard boulder problems and don’t fear for their tendons because they seem like they were born to climb and have spent many hours building up to that level.

I would have thought pulling on a nasty crimp on a steep problem is made safer by some controlled training on a fingerboard? And you can only pull hard on crap holds if you are naturally able to do so.

Maybe I am just talking utter bollocks.

andyd

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No offence meant here andy but that's probably why most climbers have heard the name ashima and none know the name andyd's kid

I can't remember how kids think but I'm pretty sure some will think I want to be able to do something no one else my age has done as well as some of the kids thinking I want mummy and daddy to stay together as well as some kids thinking I want to go to mcdonalds

...OK..?

Nibile

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I think that the point was not just injuries (they happen) but long term damage to bones at tendons' insertions. This is visible only ex post, when the process has already started, no? Would be interesting checking past mini wads like Katie Brown, when she won Arco she was very very young, although not 11, and weighed only 33 kg. How are her fingers and elbows now?

SA Chris

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Fine apparently. There were some vids of her bearing down hard on boulders in India (pilgrimage) , trad routes and sport routes in the last couple of years. Look on vimeo or youtube.

 

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