UKBouldering.com

The Black Dog... WHO Mental Health Day (Read 129109 times)

webbo

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5028
  • Karma: +141/-13
My experience which is now a couple of years past and this is from supervising mental health staff supporting students. Is that if the student has a serious mental heath problem and their behaviour is impacting on the department they are in or effecting other students they may share accommodation with. There is little sympathy for their condition and the university can’t get rid of them fast enough.
After all its effecting their figures and business.

Fiend

Offline
  • *
  • _
  • forum hero
  • Abominable sex magick practitioner and climbing heathen
  • Posts: 13413
  • Karma: +676/-67
  • Whut
Quick (?) hypothetical / speculative (??) question about depression / climbing:

Are there any top climbers (or generally very dedicated / focused / passionate climbers) who have managed to climb or keep climbing are a high standard despite having "conventional" depression??

I'm talking about bog standard hide-under-the-duvet-can't-get-up-can't-face-the-outside-world-struggle-to-eat-and-wash-can't-keep-in-contact-with-friends-no-energy-no-emotion-no-pleasure-even-in-nice-stuff-can't-do-things-to-help-oneself-rotting-away-waiting-until-bedtime-just-to-sleep-life-away depression.

That to me seems like highly incompatible with the active / energetic / social / challenging / intense nature of regular, determined high-standard climbing - pretty much the polar opposite. So are there any cases of people managing to do it anyway and juggle both contradictory aspects??

lagerstarfish

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Weapon Of Mass
  • Posts: 8810
  • Karma: +812/-10
  • "There's no cure for being a c#nt"
PMed you Fiend

Herbert

Offline
  • *
  • regular
  • Posts: 50
  • Karma: +8/-0
I've been a lurker here for longer than I care to remember. I'm going through some shit at the moment that's hard to bear, but reading this thread through from begining to end and reading about others who have shared a lot and helped each other a lot has, in turn, helped me. The Internet can be a dark and poisenous place much of the time but there are pockets of light. Thanks to everyone who's contributed to this.

Offwidth

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1767
  • Karma: +57/-13
    • Offwidth
Very apt and praiseworthy: UKB being a pocket of light that can help to pull through a tricky looking problem.

Falling Down

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4880
  • Karma: +333/-4
    • bensblogredux
Yes indeed.  I hope you have someone to talk to Herbet.

SA Chris

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 29221
  • Karma: +630/-11
    • http://groups.msn.com/ChrisClix
Indeed. If you need a complete stranger to talk to, feel free to message.

lagerstarfish

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Weapon Of Mass
  • Posts: 8810
  • Karma: +812/-10
  • "There's no cure for being a c#nt"
reading this thread through from begining to end and reading about others who have shared a lot and helped each other a lot has, in turn, helped me.

the thread isn't finished yet!

asking and contributing can only help you, us and other people in the future

thanks for posting Herbert, you inspired me to go back to the beginning of this thread and read it all again

nice one


Herbert

Offline
  • *
  • regular
  • Posts: 50
  • Karma: +8/-0
Thanks all, kind words. I'm lucky that I do have people to talk to, but this thread still helps. Perhaps it's something to do with reading thoughts on the subject from people I don't know, but through climbing can identify with in some way.

My brother killed himself almost two months ago which I can't begin to describe the impact of. I feel anonymous enough to mention this without feeling uncomfortable. So my only contribution is (as others have said) if you're contemplating suicide please, please speak to someone, call someone. Call anyone. Send me an email. The Samaritans are always there https://www.samaritans.org

And if you think someone might be at risk of harming themselves, try to say something to them. Its difficult, it's uncomfortable, but the consequences of not talking about it can be so much worse.  :hug:
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 09:48:38 am by Herbert »

SA Chris

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 29221
  • Karma: +630/-11
    • http://groups.msn.com/ChrisClix
Condolences on your loss Herbert. And very brave of you for posting this.

Fiend

Offline
  • *
  • _
  • forum hero
  • Abominable sex magick practitioner and climbing heathen
  • Posts: 13413
  • Karma: +676/-67
  • Whut
Fuck that is very harsh Herbert. I hope coping with it improves eventually. And glad you could glean something useful from here.

Wise words about seeking help or trying to help others.





...

Not to derail Herberts situation as I'm sure we can have concurrent discussions on here. But: When I posted my previous post I was actually feeling okay, it was a matter of genuine curiosity. Thanks to lagers and one other for the response (and someone who replied with suggestions of help). Does anyone else have any anecdotes or ideas related to that?? It is still something I'm interested in.

user deactivated

  • Guest
Hi Fiend, in my experience and anecdotally people experiencing a significant range of physical (psycho-vegetative) symptoms of depression e.g sleep disturbance, weight loss / gain, slowing down or agitation etc would struggle to perform at a high level during that period?

JamieG

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1278
  • Karma: +80/-0
Hi Herbert,

So sorry for your loss. Depression is a truly horrible illness. I can't imagine how you are feeling, but I hope you find a way through it. And find this thread useful.

As someone who has struggled with depression over the years, talking with family and friends has definitely helped.

Cheers Jamie

Andy F

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1985
  • Karma: +129/-13
  • Ex-ex-climber
Herbert,

Things may be desperate now. They will get better. There is light at the end of the tunnel. You. Are. Worth. It.

You've taken the first step. That's the hardest. Keep talking, keep sharing. People do want to know.

mrjonathanr

Online
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5377
  • Karma: +242/-6
  • Getting fatter, not fitter.
Ouf Herbert!  My  sincere condolences.

Falling Down

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4880
  • Karma: +333/-4
    • bensblogredux
On this thread... as helpful as it is.  The only thing I would change about it. Knowing what I now know, having been through the downs and ups and the subsequent learning and change, is the emphasis on meds. 

The citalopram and CBT certainly helped me in a difficult period and alleviated the symptoms, but after I’d finished it, I realised I had to dig in a lot deeper and it took some more work with a therapist to sort it out.

A few years on and two and bit years into training as a Psychotherapist and working on my Saturdays this year as a volunteer counsellor with drop-in clients at http://www.thecaravan.org.uk/, I’m learning about and experiencing a much broader and deeper appreciation of depression and anxiety.  What it is, how it plays out and what might be causing the symptoms to manifest.  That and a whole lot more...

This article from Oliver Burkeman has a controversial title and an overemphasis on Freudian psychodynamics that I don’t fully agree with.  However, the core argument and supporting research points toward an increasing recognition of the value of a longer term therapeutic relationship in healing and helping.

It’s a real tragedy that longer term therapy isn’t available on the NHS and the debate continues between the NHS, UKCP and the Government.  That said, there are many low-cost options offered by private therapists and free-of-charge centres staffed by volunteer qualified practitioners and trainees (most of whom have more experience than a CBT counsellor) available in many cities and towns that I’d recommend to anyone who’s looking for help with ongoing problems or something more than a quick fix.  Also, if anyone is working with CBT, don’t stop, don’t doubt its efficacy; it’s brilliant and it works - it just might not be the one thing that sorts it all out.

I’ve written and then deleted several versions of this post for several months out of fear of a “Well he would say that wouldn’t he” reaction but, fuck it. I started the thread in 2012 and it seems to have had a positive impact so this post might help somebody.


Reply to thread or PM me (I might not answer immediately) with any questions.  I’m not in able to deal with anything personal but might be able to point in a useful direction.


« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 08:38:01 pm by Falling Down »

Oldmanmatt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • At this rate, I probably won’t last the week.
  • Posts: 7097
  • Karma: +368/-17
  • Largely broken. Obsolete spares and scrap only.
    • The Boulder Bunker climbing centre
I get what you’re saying, but I can’t seem to make “therapy” work.
So I live on Fluoxetine.

Stupid things can precipitate me into a steep decline.
Losing my Pads on Sunday sent me into a crash of epic proportions that has only begun to retreat today. I have had maybe five hours sleep since Sunday and three of them were last night.
(That’s losing the pads on top of several other things, not least taking the Lad to the park to play footy that same evening, only to end up in A&E because he broke his wrist).

But, every time I get sufficiently organised to seek professional help, I sit there feeling like a total fraud.
Or, feel like that and give up even looking for help, convince myself it’s fine, I’m fine, life is fine, it was just a blip and I’ll see it coming next time, and what do I have to worry about really, and (fucks sake) I’m a big scary, back end of a bus, bloke ‘wot old ladies cross the road to avoid.

So, today, I borrowed some pads, climbed in the sun, or lay there reading my book between bouts, went and lifted some weights, had a swim and cooked a dinner for the family before heading into work this evening. So now I feel fine, it’s fine, life is fine and that help I swore I would look for, when confronted by a shaken Mrs OMM on Monday, it’s not a priority anymore.

Fiend

Offline
  • *
  • _
  • forum hero
  • Abominable sex magick practitioner and climbing heathen
  • Posts: 13413
  • Karma: +676/-67
  • Whut
Good post FD and interesting post OMM - you do not sound like a total fraud at all! And the things you've been through and the things you're trying to do.....warrant any help you need.

....

SSRIs / NSRIs = NSAIDs
CBT = movement coaching to work around condition
Long term therapy = long term physio to rectify underlying cause

Maybe  :-\

Oldmanmatt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • At this rate, I probably won’t last the week.
  • Posts: 7097
  • Karma: +368/-17
  • Largely broken. Obsolete spares and scrap only.
    • The Boulder Bunker climbing centre
Those sound like reasonable analogies.

I’ve developed too many self coping mechanisms, all too able to stick a bandage on the wound and ignore it until the bandage gets knocked off again.

As long as the bandage is there, it’s easy to imagne it’s healing, and hard to commit precious time to seeking the help I actually need.

Too painful and consuming, when the bandage is dislodged, to do anything beyond slapping on another; whilst growling at those who would help.

And yet, intellectually, recognising what I’m doing, but...
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 05:17:21 pm by Oldmanmatt »

user deactivated

  • Guest
Good post FD and interesting post OMM - you do not sound like a total fraud at all! And the things you've been through and the things you're trying to do.....warrant any help you need.

....

SSRIs / NSRIs = NSAIDs
CBT = movement coaching to work around condition
Long term therapy = long term physio to rectify underlying cause

Maybe  :-\

It’s a hard analogy to make, maybe ssri’s or antidepressants in general would be more equatable to treatment for diabetes. E.g insulin, metformin etc and depression can be thought of as having both genetic and environmental / nurtured factors to individual degrees e.g. type 1 or type 2 diabetes to continue the analogy. Therapeutic factors outside the specific technique are probably at least as important than the technical apspects of therapy itself, CBT could be analogous with exercise therapy for the mind. In longer term therapy depending on the type offered relational dynamics may play a more front stage role. CBT has just had more funding and active interest in proving its efficacy over the years which is why it’s been more popular with the government- because they can prove it works. However there is a growing recognition that humanistic, interpersonal and psychodynamic approaches are also very important and effective particularly for those with a long standing relationship / interpersonal aspect to their depression. In routine therapy accessed from the gp hopefully there will be an increasing range of options over the next 10 years e.g. dynamic interpersonal therapy DIT for depression. The main problem is that IAPT would like to train people and offer these therapies but something like DIT training requires a solid foundation in psychodynamic psychotherapy which isn’t currently recognised by IAPT for funding. The most important thing is recognising depression as a common and treatable ‘illness’ and continuing to de-stigmatise it with open discussions like these.

Fiend

Offline
  • *
  • _
  • forum hero
  • Abominable sex magick practitioner and climbing heathen
  • Posts: 13413
  • Karma: +676/-67
  • Whut
Good post, interesting to read. I agree my analogy was tentative (but I know nothing about diabetes).

Thanks for your earlier response to my question. I've realised, after further discussion, that I am looking at things from a less useful way. I'm looking at the seeming incompatibility of "psycho-vegetative" (great term) depression and elite (effort and/or success) physical activity only at one point in time - rather that considering that someone might be overall the latter, whilst having periods of the former in between times. Approximately.

user deactivated

  • Guest
Absolutely, for many depression is episodic. I think there’s a few accounts of famous athletes talking about this. Like Ian ‘thorpedo’ Thorpe. It’s often a complex mix of longitudinal experiences (life’s timeline) leading to psychological vulnerability, genetic / hereditary factors and current environmental / relational factors that all play a role in an episode developing. One theory suggests that dips are inevitable for some but the key is catching it before it drops with appropriate treatment / self coping strategies for improved long term management. Psycho-vegetative is a strange term huh! Sounds a bit old school unpleasant medical terminology

Fiend

Offline
  • *
  • _
  • forum hero
  • Abominable sex magick practitioner and climbing heathen
  • Posts: 13413
  • Karma: +676/-67
  • Whut
It does sound like the sort of thing they'd prescribe trepanning or leeches for! But I think it captures the mind-caused ridiculousness of the situation well.

Downclimber

Offline
  • *
  • newbie
  • Posts: 5
  • Karma: +0/-0
Firstly, Herbert, I, like many others, want to send love and good wishes. I hope that you still have some light. I can't say I know what you're going through but I can say that we care.

Seocondly,

I get what you’re saying, but I can’t seem to make “therapy” work.
So I live on Fluoxetine.

OMM, have you ever read "Voluntary madness"? https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0031RS8X0/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 . I thought it was really good - she's American so very different experience of mental health "treatments" but although she learns a lot about the way she thinks, over the course of the book, fluoxetine plays a significant role.

Like many, hers is not a simple case of "recovery", and I found the book fascinating. Slightly amusingly, in hindsight, I stole my copy from a bookshelf in a psych ward ( :ninja: I promise I don't normally steal) but it's actually quite light reading for something on such a heavy topic and I don't think the reader is expected to come to a pre-meditated conclusion.


petejh

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5776
  • Karma: +621/-36
Have been meaning to mention this for a little while. Recently finished reading The Inflamed Mind: https://shortbooks.co.uk/book/the-inflamed-mind

I got it because I'm interested in the link between nutrition and inflammation.
The author doesn't actually make any mention of nutrition - probably because the science isn't there? - but it's a fascinating story of the failure of modern science in understanding the causes of depression and other mental illness; written by someone who's been involved both in diagnosing mental illness (and prescribing SSRI's) as well as working at the heart of developing SSRI's (for GSK); but who readily admits the link between low serotonin and depression is flaky, and there's no marker to prove it.

The breaking down of the philosophical division between body and mind is brilliantly explained, and it goes on to describe how the mechanism works where bodily inflammatory markers can cross over into the brain and hence go on to produce mental illness symptoms.

Recommend anyone suffering depressive symptoms reads it. Maybe you'll reconsider mental symptoms in the light of times in life when you've suffered acute or chronic bodily inflammation.

 

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal