[shark]

Malham Cove Youth Crushing![/url]
[Engaging in the crux (V6) of "Bat Route" 8c First attempt on “Bat Route”, I climbed to the first anchor without a hitch (“Seventh Aardvark” 7b) and then sat on the bolts to figure the sequence out. Luckily I had Jordan below me shouting beta which always makes things easier. When I got acquainted with the hand and foot holds I went for an attempt at the first crux. I think in it’s own right, the first bloc is probably about V6 (F7A) – you get a good rest on a sidepull jug above the chains on “Seventh Aardvark”, then do a tricky move with a high right foot into a small sharp broken undercut crimp with your right hand. From here you stick a heel in the lower jug, shake your left hand briefly before moving into a positive undercut crimp with your left. You then step your left foot into a smear, pop your right foot up onto a spike and drop your knee to hold you close so you can move your right hand into yet another undercut crimp (much better now) before moving your left into an even better undercut crimp (Lots of undercuts – Welcome to Malham). This is the controversial bit, from here I move straight into the big jug out right from which I can then get a good kneebar no hands rest and chill before the next section. Most people it seems go to a small tooth before moving to the jug, however I found it easier to go straight into the jug (happy days).

I held Ste Mac's rope when he first when on it and he had a bit of a torrid time though it sounds like he was using a whack sequence. Zippy had a go recently too and from first impressions thought the route was pretty straightforward. At V6 to a rest and then hard but not desperate sustained climbing sounds like it should be less than 8c especially now the beta is flowing. Whaddyareckon ?

Irrespective it looks a better route than Unjustified - certainly a better line.

 

[abarro81]

Be sceptical about Robbie's font grades. E.g. the migranya profunda crux section is not a v4!

[Jules L]

I can’t comment on Bat Route as I’ve (obviously!) not been on it, but as a general point I think we should stop downgrading everything in the UK. People in England are training really hard at the moment, and as a result standards are rising. Just look around you at the wall – every other person has a stop watch or a weightbelt. To downgrade every hard route that gets more than a handful of ascents discredits the hard work that people are putting in to get better.

[shark]

I can’t comment on Bat Route as I’ve (obviously!) not been on it, but as a general point I think we should stop downgrading everything in the UK. People in England are training really hard at the moment, and as a result standards are rising. Just look around you at the wall – every other person has a stop watch or a weightbelt. To downgrade every hard route that gets more than a handful of ascents discredits the hard work that people are putting in to get better.

It's a balance. The flip side is that some people are put off by trying routes with big numbers who are capable of doing the routes especially if the numbers are over-big.

If the crux is V6 then given the nature of the route it seems unlikely to be 8c. If as Alex says Robbie can't font-grade for toffee then I for one would be interested in a more accurate V grade of the crux.

As a general point it doesn't discredit people's hard work trying to arrive at fair grades or for that matter dissecting analysing the type of difficulties for each route.         

[gme]

Are we really down grading everything. I thought this route was 8b+ since being done until it was upgraded a few years ago.

Its seems that just as many routes have gone up (the oak, the bulge) from there original grades as have gone down.

[slackline]

Using Font grades rather than V grades might make the Font grade more intuitive.

[Nick B]

Having been filming a bit of bat route recently and listening to people's opinions in the route, a v6 crux does seem a bit ludicrous. V8/9 seems more likely.

[Doylo]

Robbie's bouldering grades do appear to be out, he said the start of Overnite was v6 in  a previous post.  I thought v8ish (7c to end from there). I just asked mawsons, he said 7b, maybe a + at a push. So Robbie just needs to add 2 grades to his estimations 

[Stu Littlefair]

V6 for the crux of Bat Route? God, I'm shit.

I'd have said font 7b+/7c. It'd be 8a in Parisella's...

[shark]

Robbie's bouldering grades do appear to be out, he said the start of Overnite was v6 in  a previous post.  I thought v8ish (7c to end from there). I just asked mawsons, he said 7b, maybe a + at a push. So Robbie just needs to add 2 grades to his estimations 

Great? minds - Id texted him too.

7B/7B(+)makes more sense. 7A was an affront to grade science.

[shark]

I'd have said font 7b+/7c. It'd be 8a in Parisella's...

Even more sense

[Doylo]

V6 for the crux of Bat Route? God, I'm shit.

I'd have said font 7b+/7c. It'd be 8a in Parisella's...

Ha ha. Crucial times would be tricky halfway up Malham 
Mawson also said 'defo' 8a+ for the top wall not 8a.

[Robbie_Phillips]

Hahahaha!

I don't think I've ever had so many comments before Maybe I am wrong. I am training a lot at the moment on circuits and boulders that strong people have graded and maybe I'm a little off in my opinions of grades. Honestly though, Bat route in my opinion is 8c. I know I haven't climbed a lot of them (one), but compared to that it felt the same grade, and compared to unjustified it felt harder and compared to all 8b+'s ive done it feels harder.

The one thing I might do badly is grading boulders but I know what route grades in the 8b-8c region feel like for me, especially if they are sustained with no hard bloc moves in them (i.e. that suit my style).

Talking about the boulder grades, I am a terrible boulderer. It's definitely not V9 otherwise I wouldn't have linked it on my 1st attempt (to link it that is). I think Neil Mawson is probably on the button. F7B might be right for the crux moves and if it is then I feel that maybe my bouldering isn't as bad as I think it is as I practically repped the crux on sunday afternoon around 4 times after initially doing the link just to make sure I knew what I was doing if I'm going to get some more chances to come down to try it. Saying that, if Jordan hadn't have given me the beta I might not have strung 2 moves together

And Simon is right - It's a million times better than Unjustified and probably the most interesting climbing I've ever done! I love Malham and its intricacies.

[El Mocho]

Are we really down grading everything. I thought this route was 8b+ since being done until it was upgraded a few years ago.

Its seems that just as many routes have gone up (the oak, the bulge) from there original grades as have gone down.

To get back to the Bat Route thing (no disrespect Robbie but it is of far more interest to me than Cork Climbing Club Coaching )
and also to keep Sam happy before all his 8c's get down graded...

I think this route is 8c (towards the bottom end but still 8c) with the crux being around 7B - obv feels harder when on the link.

When it was originally done there was a 'big' flake on the section from the knee bars to the pocket and when Nic Sellars pulled this off he gave up on the route as he felt it was considerably harder (and hence the lack of ascents until Steves, also I believe Steve reckoned 8c/+ although he was using a wack sequence on this section) there are also rumors that the route originally finished a little lower down (potentially below the final tricky section where Stu, me, Steve D and Sam have all fallen off on rp) and I have also heard talk that people traversed off to the Rainshadow belay ledge for a full rest. The upgrade (even if half of above turns out to be wrong) seems pretty justified to me.

Re Unjustified - When Tony did this he was climbing direct on the section where the sica hold used to be (where the slight kink out R is used now) and apparently (heard from people around at the time who tried the route back in the day) this was both the rp crux and hardest move. People now do the little kink R and back L - this is a much better sequence so makes sense to use - and now most think the hardest move (and prob rp crux?) is the section turning the lip. It would make sense that this would now feel softer than Tony's original 8c grade, whether by a full grade (so 8b+) or simply to soft 8c I don't know or really care. The one thing about sport climbing in the uk is we get very few of the softer graded routes - there are many reasons why we down grade - a woman has done it, Ian onsighted it back in the day (Monumental), short people have done it, weak people have done it, old people have done it, short weak old people who wear glasses have done it.......  I have probably been a little guilty of downgrading/undergrading stuff - it fits with the British understatement and also makes me feel like a big man but from recent trips sport climbing abroad there tends to be routes at both the upper and lower limit of the grade (even somewhere like the jura!) hence I propose an upgrade for 'Raining Cats and Dogs' no way is that only 8c.

ps Robbie - you're probably climbing quite well at the moment. News Flash Steelly fingered youth who trains a lot finds crux not too bad. Would be like us being surprised because Ed 'the future' Hammer finds hold on crux of mere 8c quite big.

[Robbie_Phillips]

Thanks for your reply Mocho. I was frequently checking and waiting for someone to reply to that. I agree with you - I think Bat route is 8c. I also think that the harder (original) version of Unjustified was 8c. I do think that the new version is 8b+ however and it didnt feel a hard one for the grade. When I did Unjustified I was already a few weeks into my Yorkshire coaching trip and was pretty tired/looking forward to going home. When that happens on trips my grade drops massively so by doing Unjustified relatively quickly, well, it was a bit of a shock.

I havent been on raining bats and dogs but I agree with Sam who I spoke with at the crag in thinking that it must be 8c+, theres no way it wouldn't be seeing as Bat route is 8c and your adding potentially another V7 crux (Jordan said) plus an 8a+/b finale!

People seem to think Im downgrading but Im not. I like to break routes into chunks, it makes me feel more confident when visualising myself climbing a hard route and I believe more that I can do it. Maybe my boulder grades are off by two like Simon suggested, this is probably the case but at no point have I attempted to downgrade it. If you look at my previous suggestions of routes and boulder grades,  they are actually very consistent!

Finally, I do train a lot and going on an 8c and feeling like the moves felt ok was amazing. I think training is paying off :D

Ed doesn't work like normal people, he can do deadhangs of the beastmker crimp rail with a tool box in his hand whilst simultaneously discussing the rules of cricket (which frankly I can't do at the best of times).

And believe me, I have got my fair share of steely youth issues as I coach a lot of them up here. One of them tried to convince me that Raindogs was 7c+ last weekend (Cheeky beggar)

[Doylo]

T  I have probably been a little guilty of downgrading/undergrading stuff - it fits with the British understatement and also makes me feel like a big man but from recent trips sport climbing abroad there tends to be routes at both the upper and lower limit of the grade (even somewhere like the jura!) hence I propose an upgrade for 'Raining Cats and Dogs' no way is that only 8c.

Mighty Mawsons thoughts on the grade of his link: http://www.bigstone.co.uk/climbing-team/neil-mawson/

[shark]

T  I have probably been a little guilty of downgrading/undergrading stuff - it fits with the British understatement and also makes me feel like a big man but from recent trips sport climbing abroad there tends to be routes at both the upper and lower limit of the grade (even somewhere like the jura!) hence I propose an upgrade for 'Raining Cats and Dogs' no way is that only 8c.

Mighty Mawsons thoughts on the grade of his link: http://www.bigstone.co.uk/climbing-team/neil-mawson/

"I view Raining Bats and Dogs (RBD) as doing 2 8b’s with a good but core intensive rest in between. So yes I think it’s harder than Bat route, as that’s 8b into 8a+, but don’t think it makes it 8c+. As Bat route is considered to be an easy-ish 8c then I think RBD is a hard 8c. If you compare RBD with Rainshadow (Rs) then Rs does an 8a+(no chain grab remember) and then a font 7c+ to get to the join with RBD and RBD does a 7b into a font 7b, a big rest then font 7a+. Even if you took the rest out the RBD is still easier! So my view is IF the rest wasn’t there on RBD then yes 8c+ for sure but it is so its hard 8c. Also RBD’s is easier than Steve’s Batshadow link which he gave 8c+."

 

[gme]

I am a bit lost. Is this about the grades of routes at malham or the Higgs Boson.

[JohnM]

Just to add my 2ps worth and basically confirm what others have said.  Went on Bat Route for the first time the other day and I thought the crux was solid 7B.  However, my beta may have been a bit whack and sounds different to what Robbie described in his blog.  My beta:  After big side pull you rest on, left hand over to big open side pull flatty thing, flick into small undercut or straight out to side pull with good thumb catch.  Left foot onto small blackened foothold, right foot into shallow pocket with slight drop knee.  Right hand up into small sharp undercut with thumb catch rail onto.  Step left foot inside on to black nubbin and right foot up onto higher blackened foothold.  Left hand up into another crimpy sidepull.  Step right foot back through onto little vertical rib and left foot higher onto good shallow dish.  Right foot up into drop knee and left hand up into better side pull.  Step through again and bring right foot on big foothold onto of big flatty side pull and go into higher right undercut.  Put right foot on thumb catch of lower side pull, drop the knee slightly and bit the spike with right hand. 

I didn't find the heel Robbie describes and my beta works but involves a lot of foot movements (welcome to Malham!).  Anyone care to enlighten me on some better beta?  Can't wait for the top to dry out know so I can get stuck into it properly!

[Serpico]

I am a bit lost. Is this about the grades of routes at malham or the Higgs Boson.

The Higgs Boson has a 5 Sigma level of certainty, the crux of Bat Route doesn't.
Much more research is needed before we can say with any confidence what the grade of the 'God' move is.

[danm]

I'd need the Higgs field to be switched off to get up Bat Route. 

[Robbie_Phillips]

John, sounds like what I did the first time I went up before Jordan gave me better beta. The heel hook is the good sidepull you rest on (I think). I didn't use any of the good sidepulls as they made the number of moves bigger and the foot sequence more twisted . I basically went from the first sidepull (left hand) after the jug straight to the undercut (broken I think) then used only undercuts from there until the jug where you can kneebar. I am 6ft with a normal ape index which means making the jug from the undercuts was quite ok for me. Others have to use a horrible tooth as an intermediate or even as an extra hold to pull on for some.