[b3n99]

Cheers for the feedback guys, good to see a few different opinions. I think I'm going to prioritise front lever,plank, push ups and leg raise training and hit it pretty hard for a good month, see if things change.

I'm surprised after all the chat about the rear-chain strength (hamstrings, lower back, glutes) and its importance on steep ground, that you've chosen to select the 3 exercises that mainly target the abs and frontal core muscles??  Maybe ditch one of those and add in some deadlifts?

My decision was based on what I think will benefit me with advuce from this forum thread. First of all I believe the front lever training is very much lower back. I don't get an ache in my abs at all after a front lever section but can really feel my lower back straining. The same goes with the plank, although a little more ab strain involved too. The leg raises are just to mix it up and keep the training rounded.

With regard to technique being more important than strength I think this is very interesting and very possibly true, but with the time frame i have (just under 2 months) I think that the core training will be a quicker road to improvement.

Despite some opinions against it being true I can't help but think that this sort of training must make keeping your feet on while stretched out and getting weight through the feet on the steep.

[Probes]

is this a cock lever?

Sure is. Essential training for if you wanna survive a good night out round here. If your levering 85kg youve usually got some margin for error.

[rodma]

Cheers for the feedback guys, good to see a few different opinions. I think I'm going to prioritise front lever,plank, push ups and leg raise training and hit it pretty hard for a good month, see if things change.

I'm surprised after all the chat about the rear-chain strength (hamstrings, lower back, glutes) and its importance on steep ground, that you've chosen to select the 3 exercises that mainly target the abs and frontal core muscles??  Maybe ditch one of those and add in some deadlifts?

My decision was based on what I think will benefit me with advuce from this forum thread. First of all I believe the front lever training is very much lower back. I don't get an ache in my abs at all after a front lever section but can really feel my lower back straining. The same goes with the plank, although a little more ab strain involved too. The leg raises are just to mix it up and keep the training rounded.

With regard to technique being more important than strength I think this is very interesting and very possibly true, but with the time frame i have (just under 2 months) I think that the core training will be a quicker road to improvement.

Despite some opinions against it being true I can't help but think that this sort of training must make keeping your feet on while stretched out and getting weight through the feet on the steep.

Keeping your feet on on the steep, unless clamping, bicycling, toehooking etc requires you to push your feet downwards onto the holds, not lift them back up of the holds

Sore back whilst doing levers could be for many reasons, don't presume that pain = strengthening, you may just be tensing everything the fuck up and putting your back in a shit position.

Of course there is at least one benefit to doing levers, you get to emulate Squiff   

You may already have amazing lower back strength, in which case you may not really benefit from deadlifts at all, but you should seriously think through your reasons for choosing the exercises that you have.

[Probes]

I guess quite a good rule of thumb for lower back testing is press ups... try and keep your self perfectly flat whilst doing them.. after a couple of sets of 20 or so, if your arse is lifting/sagging you've probably got pretty shit LB body tension.

[b3n99]

Surely the ability to keep your feet on is more than just pushing through them, if you can keep your body in that position then in turn you will be able to put more weight through the feet.

I don't have soreness in my lower back, by 'straining' i meant during the training i can really feel it working to hold the positions. I reckon that levers are pretty good specific training seeing as a lot of my time in rocklands may well be spent stretched out on a massive roof straining to keep my feet on.

Deadlifting sounds like a good option too but i don't really want to shell out on a gym membership just for that.

[Sasquatch]

Surely the ability to keep your feet on is more than just pushing through them, if you can keep your body in that position then in turn you will be able to put more weight through the feet.

I think the opposite is actually true. Many people I know who are much stronger at doing front levers have much worse body tension when their feet are on.  The key is the posterior chain and learning to pull with your feet.  I can't do a single front lever, but I can go full body extension off a 5mm foothold on a roof. 

Keeping your feet on the wall is not about ab strength/front lever ability. If your feet some off the wall, Getting them back on is all about that type of strength.  Now I have no idea what your strength/weaknesses are, so I have no idea what you should be working.

Nibs really hit on the key point that to get stronger, you need to be able to accurately identify the weak link in the chain.  That's the low hanging fruit before a trip.

I think that the best training is very specifiic, strong abs are useless if one has weak shoulders. I think that strong shoulders are crucial to stabilize the positions, especially with holds above/behind your head as in roofs.
I think that setting specific boulder problems, or simply holding very strenuous positions in which the whole body is engaged, is more beneficial than lots of isolation exercises.

 

My decision was based on what I think will benefit me with advice from this forum thread. First of all I believe the front lever training is very much lower back. I don't get an ache in my abs at all after a front lever section but can really feel my lower back straining. The same goes with the plank, although a little more ab strain involved too. The leg raises are just to mix it up and keep the training rounded.

I would strongly argue that if this is the case, your posterior chain is truly a weakness you need to work. Also if it is that weak, then you may be right by chosing the exercises you have. 

[kingholmesy]

OK, so reading this thread has convinced me that the reason that I am crap at keeping my feet on the woody at the wall is more likely due to a weak lower back than weak abs.  Maybe it's part of the reason I also have poor posture?

What are the best exercises for remedying this?  I am thinking planks (although they always feel like they are working my abs pretty hard) and maybe those weird looking exercises where you lay on your stomach with your arms stretched out in front and then raise both arms and legs off the floor at the same time.  Any other/better suggestions?  I have dumbells, pull-up bar and beastmaker at home, but don't want to have to go to a gym.

[iain]

As an completely unscientific alternative to deadlifts try doing press-ups with your feet at shoulder height on a flat wall, body straight obviously. It works the shoulders and core pushing the feet into the wall to keep tension, and I always feel my lower back fail before the front (and for info I can do a controlled lift into a front lever).

It doesn't have the sheer weight of deadlifts but I find it pretty intense after a set or two, and you can make it harder by using the balls of the feet, or even adding some weight around the waist, (I find I don't need much.)

I'd be curious to know how someone who has good foot on tension finds them. For me they chime well with:

simply holding very strenuous positions in which the whole body is engaged

[Nibile]

I'd go with front levers and steep bouldering with poor feet, or even better, system training.




I think that to be really effective:
- the holds must be so bad that you can't hold them footless
- the feet must be so bad that you slip off when you release pressure

Hope this helps.

[Fultonius]

I'd go with front levers and steep bouldering with poor feet, or even better, system training.




I think that to be really effective:
- the holds must be so bad that you can't hold them footless
- the feet must be so bad that you slip off when you release pressure

Hope this helps.

   With all this chat of deadlifts I completely forgot about climbing-specific exercises - good work Nibs!

  Non-gym supplemental exercises - Reverse hyperextension

more "gym based" but you could probably emulate them at home

Another point, similar to Nibs' - if you're doing 45* bouldering, make sure you keep your feet on, even if it means you have to drop a grade.

[iain]

I completely forgot about climbing-specific exercises - good work Nibs!

Indeed  (Although those of us without a wall need to try other things.)

[kingholmesy]

Cheers Nibile - these seem like good exercises which I can do on a board.

Another point, similar to Nibs' - if you're doing 45* bouldering, make sure you keep your feet on, even if it means you have to drop a grade.

This also seems like a good point.  I think I often find it easier to cut loose than keep my feet on, but I suspect that this is holding me back from doing problems where the handholds are too poor to hang without using my feet more.

[Yoof]

Sorry, I've gotten all confused, I need to work on my rear core strength (to stop the constant sciatica, and so that I can climb harder). The issue is that I can't do  the obvious exercises like leg raises and dishes because my hip and hamstrings are horribly tight. Would plancking help the muscles in the rear of my lower back or not? Thanks in advance.

[Sasquatch]

I'd go with front levers and steep bouldering with poor feet, or even better, system training.




I think that to be really effective:
- the holds must be so bad that you can't hold them footless
- the feet must be so bad that you slip off when you release pressure

Hope this helps.

And we have a winner!!!!!!!

As usual Nibs get the training answer right 

  So much for me to learn.....

[shark]

Hope this helps.

That first exercise has to be an improvement on bicep curls 

[Nibile]

Oh yes for sure! But it's very helpful for core also, the underclings are good but the fooholds are far low (for me) and they are parallel to the board, so not incut.

[duncan]

Feet on - hip extensors and low back extensors

Feet off - hip flexors and abdominals

[Nibile]

they are parallel to the board, so not incut.

Perpendicular.
Sorry.

[shark]

Feet on - hip extensors and low back extensors

Feet off - hip flexors and abdominals

Are you sure abs aren't engaged feet on? I assumed that was why I find it hard to breathe on hard moves.

[Fultonius]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure abs are almost always engaged in some way or another, especially as soon as you put any form of twisting in. But, as Duncan points out a "body tension failure" on steep ground with feet on is more likely going to be due to weakness/poor coordination of the posterior chain.

I think what he was trying to do was show that, contrary to what many people think, it's not the abs that do most of the work to hold you in on roofs.


I hazard a guess that most people already operating in the >7B range probably already have sufficient strength in the abdominals and would be better focussing on something else.


On roofs, Bum Sagging = more likely to be weak posterior chain (hams, glutes, lower back)
Difficulty moving a foot up from a low hold to a high hold = weak abs/hip flexors and possibly weak shoulders, but a weak post. chain will also contribute to the failure....




Also, a final note. If your feet regularly ping of bad holds on roofs and then you struggle to get them back on you probably need to:

1. Work on the posterior chain to keep them on in the first place, and to give you the drive/momentum to make the next move
2. Work on the front core (abs, shoulders {levers etc.} and hip flexors {leg raises}) to get you back on if you do swing off. *1
3. MTFU 

*1 as there are some problems with better hand holds and terrible feet where the best technique might be to swing of and jump your feet to higher hold.



Once again, it's about identifying your personal weaknesses and doing the most appropriate actions to remedy these.

[rich d]

My abs are definitely engaged when feet on, especially when stretched out, feels to me like the predominant muscle with calves (but that's more a flexibility thing for me). Feet off I get less abs engagement until I'm trying to put them back on then I feel it. But take it all with a pinch of salt as I'm very shit.

[douglas]

What does everyone think of glute ham raises for 'back' core?

[duncan]

Feet on - hip extensors and low back extensors

Feet off - hip flexors and abdominals

Are you sure abs aren't engaged feet on? I assumed that was why I find it hard to breathe on hard moves.

The deeper abdominal muscles and the diaphragm are definitely engaged to brace / stablise but the prime movers are the hip extensors (gluts. mainly) and low back extensors.  Fultonius has it right, my point was mainly to reinforce Sasquach: there is more to all this than just the abdominals.   

The glut. / ham raises exercise will be training the right muscles but differently to how they are used in climbing so doing this may not have much effect on climbing performance.

A good "foot on" exercise you can do whilst giving the arms a rest is demonstrated by this fine chap (you might want to do start with the shoulders supported unless you are very confident in the strength of your neck and upper back muscles).  A good progression is to get a small child to jump up and down randomly on your tummy*.



You all know him but, just in case he is reading this, check out his excellent and entertaining blog.

*available for hire for reasonable hourly rates





 

[shark]

This is actually piss. I felt pleased doing it tonight but then both my sons did it too. Looks good though.

[Nibile]

 
I've never found a route or boulder problem in which you have to push down with both heels and the back of your head. Toes, calves and shoulders are completely useless in that.
It seems to me that one could use his training time in a more economic and effective way.