[Houdini]

120 x 25 = 3km this afternoon in a pool whipped w/ snow and hail!  99% breast 1% crawl        Tres steady over 1.5 hours.  Limped out of the pool w/ tits bigger than Melinda Messenger's.

[Fultonius]

Dragging up old topics here, thought it was better than starting a new one.

I've started swimming a bit more (good cardio and is fine on my recovering knee) and I've always had a nagging ambition to do a triathlon at some point. I'm not really much of a runner, or much of a swimmer for that matter so I'm probably not best suited to do a tri, but I like challenges 


I have always been pretty diabolical at front crawl - never manage more than about 3 x 25m before I'm sucking air through my arse and risking imminent drowning! I can do quite good pace breast stroke almost indefinitely (I used to be able to do 100 lengths no worries, and my pace isn't a huge amount slower than the average front-crawler) but I really want to get my front-crawl to the same stage, as that's the stroke everyone does in tri's. (is there any requirement to do front crawl?)

I'm just back form 3 weeks in away with work and managed to get a fair bit of swimming in. Did a bit of reading on the web about technique and tried a few new things (like not really kicking much, breathing alternately, trying to be more streamlined) and it does seem to work as I can now do about 6 x 25m without needing to stop.

My question is - if you want5 to fit in a fair bit of swimming to your average week, how is it best to schedule it around climbing?  Climbing will still be my main focus, and I don't want swimming to harm climbing progress too much. Any thoughts?

Also, any good tips on improving F/C stamina? Today on my 6th 25m I was actually feeling like it was muscle fatigue (or maybe lactic burn) in my arms that made me stop rather than really struggling with breathing - was still breathing every 3rd and not resorting to every 2nd stroke.

[Falling Down]

>Also, any good tips on improving F/C stamina?

If you're like me, you're probably trying to go too fast and using your arms too much.  Try going way slower and really relaxing. A big learning for me also was learning to pivot my whole body on the horizontal axis for the breathing stroke, using the momentum of the arm to lift the body out of the water rather than just twisting the neck and shoulders to breathe.

And, get some coaching. Just a couple of hours can make a massive difference.

As for mixing with climbing, it's not going to make you a better climber but it'll help with injury proofing and all-round physical prepardness.  The main challenge will be your skin getting soft so leave at least 8 hours between swimming and any climbing.

[Fultonius]

Do you find swimming ok on rest days, or does it retard recovery? 

I have been trying to go as slow as I can, but I start sinking!  (I have the unusual ability to sink even with a lung-full of air!)

I think you might be right about coaching - a lot of the stuff on the web is completely at odds with what I was taught at school 15 years ago. (like the body rolling thing, I'm sure we were taught to try and minimise rolling...)

[Falling Down]

>Do you find swimming ok on rest days, or does it retard recovery? 

It depends whether you are a reasonable swimmer or not.  If you can swim well, then doing an hour in the pool is like going for a run - ideal recovery exercise.  If you're a total spazz in the pool then swimming is probably going to harder on the body than a two hour campus session.

Swimming (like riding a bike, running, surfing) will not make you a better climber but if you like it and it makes you feel good then knock yourself out with it as you're less likely to climb/train yourself into injury when you're into something else that's physical and floats your boat.

I've only swum when training for a surfing trip or when I'm by the sea for the fun of it and never really thought of it in relation to climbing.
 

[Falling Down]

This is good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Immersion

The book is great.

If you're sinking, try lowering your head much more than you think you should, it'll lift your spine and legs.

[mini]

I was in a similar position a year ago, with little to no f/crawl stamina. I built it up over time, starting of with combo of breaststroke / front crawl at a ratio of 1:1. Eventually I built up to 1:2, 1:3 ratios etc over a couple of month until crawl became more natural and efficient that b/stroke.

Technique is key to a smooth stroke. That's were I found the 1:1 ratio beneficial, as you felt fresh with every length, and you could feel what was right. Have you checked out Mr Smooth? I tried not to do too much crawl when tired, as it would instil too much bad technique, so don't try and do too much, let the fitness come.

I also found as a climber that the 'pull' was a lot stronger than the 'push' aspect of the stoke, crucial for a balanced stroke, so work on that, do some tricep work etc.

As for fitting in with climbing schedule, I cannot comment, as I did little climbing last year whilst training for the Elites group at the Great North Swim. Now that I've kicked back in to climbing again I might get a better idea, but I suspect swimming on days after a climbing day shouldn't affect the climbing too much.

Edited to add that I found a dvd called 'Becoming A Faster Swimmer - Freestyle' (got mine through lovefilm if your a member) was of great benefit if you don't get time to use a coach.

[Fultonius]

I was in a similar position a year ago, with little to no f/crawl stamina. I built it up over time, starting of with combo of breaststroke / front crawl at a ratio of 1:1. Eventually I built up to 1:2, 1:3 ratios etc over a couple of month until crawl became more natural and efficient that b/stroke.

I was wondering if constantly trying to swim more lengths of front crawl would be beneficial, or if I'm better working on technique when I'm fresher (by doing the 1:1 thing). I can keep good technique* for about 4 lengths but it degrades quickly after that.

Ben, I currently swim like a moderate spaz, but I hope to improve to only a minor spaz...  As anyone who knows me well will tell you - being "injury proofed" will probably make a big difference to my long term progression in climbing, even if it means a short term slow down...


*good technique for me

[Davo]

Not sure how much help this will be but...

I swam competitively as a kid and returned briefly to training a few years ago (in order to do an open ocean swim). Had some thoughts like yourself of doing a triathlon but eventually sacked it off.

I found it incredibly difficult to fit in enough swimming volume and still climb. My shoulders would generally feel terrible after swimming. Also as the event I wanted to do was basically an endurance proposition I needed to spend a lot of time each week swimming which again interfered with climbing. Have no idea how you could combine a triathlon with training for climbing. But I am certainly no natural at any sport and therefore have to train a lot to get much improvement.

Anyway, what I really wanted to say, is that in my huimble opinion technique is the most important thing in swimming. It is certainly what I remember mostly from training as a kid. It was also apparent that a friend of mine who was much fitter than me and was a triathlete sucked at swimming simply from poor technique. He used a lot of energy and got tired very quickly just simply from poor and inefficient technique. This is not to imply mine is great, just that it was a surprise that someone so fit was not good at swimming.

So, I guess that to improve it could be worth investing in some coaching lessons. Obviously you could just get some books and use the internet but I have an idea that this may be quite a long process.

Finally I reckon if you want to be get fitter at front crawl, you have to swim more front crawl. I don't think swimming breaststroke will make you better or fitter at frontcrawl as the strokes are so different.

Hope this is of some help

Dave

[mini]

Having set myself a goal of completeing the Great North Swim in the Elite group this coming June, I've really needed to up the anti a little. Whilst trailing through the SwimSmooth website I came a little formula that works out your Critical Swim Speed, the ideal swimming pace for your training sessions.

When I first worked this out, the resulting pace was above my best ever pace for a complete mile (29 minutes to my p.b. 31mins), and the resulting pool sessions were sick hard (in fact I have yet to complete one of their typical work outs due to wanting to barf!). But, after just a few sessions swimming at my CSS, my p.b. has dropped to 29min 30 secs, - sub-thirty minute target hit!

So, if anyone's after shaving some time last years best, it might be worth a working out your CSS and feeling the pain.

[underground]

Dragging this back once again, but, tonight I swam for an hour, which is probably an hour longer than I've swum (like swimming, not messing about in the pool) since I was a nipper. one of the pointers here were definitely a help - goggles are definitely essential, and not scrambling from one side of the pool in a frantic thrash was great. Just slowing down and taking the time to breathe properly meant I could keep going and enjoy the session.

Maybe next time I'll do lengths rather than widths, but widths were enough for a first try - and besides the ladies aquacise class may have objected to me ploughing through them. Then again maybe not 

[Oldmanmatt]

Having been a competitive swimmer at national level, I find the best way to fit in swimming with climbing is to go for sprint training twice a week (rest days, for me; tues & thurs).
100m FC
100m Brst
100m FC (arms only, leg float)
100m Brst (arms only, leg float)
100m Brst (legs only, board)
Push as hard as you can on each, rest 3 min, between sprints.
Gives you a good cardio workout and  works your power nicely.
I find I recover much quicker than I do from an hours ploding...
Usually takes less than half an hour, even for a newbie.

[nai]

Guess this a question for those with back problems - anyone got any experience of swimming improving the deep core muscles (transverse abdominus) which help popped disc sufferers or does it just cause more problems for the spine?
From pottering in the pool with the kids it feels like maintaining a crawl position and kicking should help but my physio didn't mention anything and all attempts at researching this generate results about core strength for swimming not by swimming.  There's a few anecdotal things and the usual forum posts that offer conflicting advice...
I'm guessing/hoping  that as I'm unfit, not a good swimmer and with abs like butter it'll probably do some good and improve my CV fitness to boot. 
Any advice much appreciated.

[Oldmanmatt]

Wow, 'dis thread is made for me!
Now, just listen to Uncle Matt...

Seriously, I have/had a herniated disc (4th & 5th lumb.). I was a swimmer from an early age. Did my back in in my mid 20's. Went through epidurals, physios, chyro's; you name it. A few years back, I met a sport physio, who convinced me that the disc was less important than core strength. He gave me a few simple exercises and got me tostart swimming hard (sprints) again. I have not had any (ANY!) problems for 5 years or more. As long as I keep up the training, I don't hurt.
I'm not a doctor, but....

[nai]

cheers fella, that's pretty conclusive I'll give it a go.

Could I cheekily ask what the exercises you do are?  My NHS physio's suggestions weren't that great, I would have thought it'd be something they treated quite regularly but she was a bit stumped for decent ideas.

[Oldmanmatt]

I start with 60 x bent knee crunches
Then          60 x leg raises (lay on back, arms at side, legs straight, raise legs to 30(ish) degrees)
                 60 x cross over crunches (right hand, left knee etc)
Turn over.
                 60 x reverse leg raises (on all fours, look fwd, arms straight, one leg straight out, raise as high as you can)
                 Repeat for other leg.
                 60 x "dog cocks" (phna, phna) (on all fours, as before, knee bent 90 degrees, raise as high as possible)

I built up the reps over a few weeks, starting from 20 x.

As you get stronger you can add in the  "Iron cross" and "Planks" and "dorsal raises".

I found the dorsal raises put too much stress on my spine and aggravated it; at first. Now I do them with weights...

Build up slowly.

Stop if it hurts.

I'm convinced a strong core = less back pain.

[underground]

I'm convinced a strong core = less back pain.

Thanks for these tips Matt - I reckon I agree entirely with the strong core - my lower back pain is due to a deformed lumbar vertebra that moves out of alignment. If I exercise my core and stretch the right bits, the pain goes away - partly due to the support provided by the core muscles but also just due to the fact that exercise activates muscles that become otherwise isolated and a bit immobile. Even a run does absolute wonders for stopping the ache.

[underground]

Well I reckon I'm doing about 700-750m of 90% breast 10% crawl in a session, not going mad sprinting but not slacking either. My strokes are shit so I can't do it very 'easy' anyway but I'm
Building on the continuity.

I reckon in combination with holding handlebars, my lays are aching as my scapulae are doing a lot of 'coming together'...

What to do? Any post swim stuff? I have a kettle bell. 2 dumbbells, various therabands, Pilates rings and balls at my disposal. (and I am getting back to the Pilates courtesy of my wife's lessons)

[slackline]

What to do? Any post swim stuff? I have a kettle bell. 2 dumbbells, various therabands, Pilates rings and balls at my disposal. (and I am getting back to the Pilates courtesy of my wife's lessons)

  of course 

[chris05]

I will be camping in the peak (near Tideswell) this weekend and with the current weather wondered if anyone knows of any good swimming spots in the peak? There is a thread on ukc which didn't reveal much and I have used google but haven't found much. Any personal recommendations?

Cheers

Chris

[mikester]

Nice weekend for it. You could try this:
http://wildswim.com/

[chris05]

Thanks for that, it suggests slippery stones which might be a go'er