[Greg C]

Another awesome new venue has just been finished off in the Lakes, with some of the best mid to hard V-Graded problems around and THE best V7 in the central Lakes!!!

http://www.lakesbloc.co.uk/17.html

Topo on there too, have fun! :D

[fatneck]

Greg, you rock :D
I'm staying round Sawrey way in a couple of weeks and am really looking forward to putting your excellent topo's to good use!
An excellent service and much appreciated
Keep up the good work! :worthy:

[squeek]

Nice one greg.  Some of those problems look ace.

[Nigel]

Can I heartily recommend this venue if you're fairly confident of being able to climb at least one V7 when you're there, the problems are absolutely top-drawer. Lots of big slapping on generally good holds, and dare I say it better than anything Wales has to offer! Greg is spot on aswell, J Mascis is the best V7 in the Lakes (so far) - finally something eclipses Axions at the Sampson Stones! Very worthy...

By the way, can I emphasize what a brilliant job Greg is doing with his free topos; for fucks sake we only did the problems on Sunday!

[chappers]

once again - great stuff Greg. keeping us busy for the summer.

[tc]

Top man. I was wondering where to go tomorrow!

[Trev Suddaby]

Tim, go for the project big lip traverse on the peregrine boulder - needs a lot of cleaning though. It'll be out there!
Trev

[tc]

re: Lakes: old skool and recent claims
 
Just been rained off the trad in Langdale, where I bumped into a few of the “old skool” lads and got chatting about bouldering and the new wave of exploration in the Lakes. Seems like a lots of the old gippers (I include myself in this elite club ) are smarting a bit and a little pissed off that their hitherto unpublished problems have now been dragged kicking and screaming into the new millennium and sport new names and grades. This was obviously going to happen (it happened in Wales in the 90s, and before that in the Peak, when the first attempts were made to document the bouldering boom and publish guides) and in no way detracts from the labours of love with the Lakesbloc site. If people can't be arsed giving the info then they shouldn't really moan (but they do!). I think a further problem lies in the fact that a lot of folk up here still think the bouldering should be kept as a ‘locals only' secret, which I personally view as a retrograde (and selfish) step, although I can fully understand the sentiments that lie behind this reluctance to publicize venues and problems, particularly after a recent trip to Carrock Fell, where I was confronted with the freash evidence of blatant over-use of the wire brush on one of the venue's classic problems. This can not be tolerated.

However, I reckon one way around this – and a great way off adding interest (and kudos) to the Lakesbloc site – would be a general request for information and additions/ corrections to the published topos and information.
         
“I did not invent Bouldering - both the word and the concept appeared in Great Britain in the late 1800s.” – John Gill

I wasn't bouldering in the late 1800s to witness O.G. Jones' groundbreaking first ascent of the highball Gash Rock or Samuel Taylor Coleridge's drug-fuelled exploration of Sampson's Stones so I feel unqualified to comment on the accuracy of Gill's proclamation. I do know however that the earliest 'Bouldering Guide' arguably appeared as early as 1916; viz: BOULDER VALLEY. By J. P. ROGERS. THE FELL AND ROCK CLIMBING CLUB JOURNAL VOL. 4 NOVEMBER, 1916 No. 1. 40-44 and details numerous problems in the Low Water area. I was also around in the ‘70s (mostly – in body if not always in mind), so with the arrogance born of impending old man status, I offer the following observations as an attempt to redress the historical balance.
With hindsight, I feel that most of the problems I did on Sampson's Stones and on the Langstrath boulders  would most likely have been done before in some form or another in the 70s and 80s – question is by whom and when? – and that pretty much everything on Carrock Fell (up to V8/V9) will also have been done at some time (the man to ask here is Kit, from Keswick).
In the late 70's, the St. Bees boulders were being treated a bit more seriously by the locals, with several evenings a week spent playing in the sand, and God knows what Joe Wilson, Brian Smith et al were up to prior to this. The Wyndham team, including Joe, Brian, Trevor Martin, and Jed Cowan (the seagull sandwich aficionado) didn't boulder there before the 80's, which is when the main developments were already done, and all the seagulls had been eaten.
           Before Walkington, Hall et al touched the rock, the Carlisle lads came and went, without leaving any record of their activities, but I know of a few of their hard problems from the mid-80's. (Up to V8, in the on-line guide.). Many of the classic problems were being regularly done – a couple now seemingly given V7 in the Lakesbloc.co.uk guide, which is kind of flattering, but way over-graded.  Dougie Hall's temporary residence in West Cumbria seemed to galvanise activity here, but it was already well under way – he simply upped the ante.  And then, there's the activities of some kid from Gosforth, called George Smith, who just ambled across and dragged arms full of sandstone down to foot level, (Some now graded V7) before moving on to live in the flared chimneys of Gogarth.

A similar problem occurs with the recently reported problems at the Gouther Crag boulders, which have long been the playground of N Lakes based climbers, and the Honister boulders. It would be interesting to find out how much of this ‘new' stuff had actually been part of the established old-school evening bouldering circuits of the 70s and 80s.

Whilst not wishing to deny the young lads their Warholian five minutes of fame, I do think that attempts should be made to trace the history of newly visited areas as a mark of respect to those who have gone before.  

           One of the main problems in introducing the kind of perspective that is found on the excellent Lakesbloc site is that in the 70's, bouldering just wasn't taken as seriously as now, and generally, problems weren't recorded.  Hardly surprising now, that we see the need for a history lesson.

[Pantontino]

Tim, there is a rather unsavoury undercurrent to your posting (even if you are acting as a peace-keeping inter-generational go-between): namely that Greg has committed some sort of heinous crime.

What crime is this: he celebrates great boulder problems via free downloadable pdfs at no great inexpense to himself - what an utter bastard!

That some problems are overgraded - shock horror! I'm not sure I can bear to carry on living in the face of such evil acts.

That despite the silence of a lost generation of rock stars, first ascent details are incorrect - my horror grows deeper with every passing moment.

That some people prefer their 'local' crags to be kept 'local'? - burn all guidebooks now!

In my experience (Wales, Yorkshire, Peak - albeit to a lesser extent) there is a vast amount of bullshit spouted about the halcyon days of old. For every 'I tell ya lad it wer all done years ago' punter, I've met another straight talking no bullshit, 'actually we were more interested in routes, we bouldered, but not like people do nowadays'. Guess who I'm more inclined to believe? I wasn't around in the 70s, but I was there in the early/mid 80s, and I know what was happening at the crags, and it sure wasn't the same as what happens now.

Yes it is important to get history right, but one man's word is just that - make sure you check things out with other cutting edge climbers around at the time.

Greg has upset the apple cart, and I for one think that is a very good thing, at least the truth will now emerge. His website is punk as fuck - and where I come from, that is a compliment worth its weight in gold.

I'll be talking to George tommorrow about St Bees. And as for N Wales, the only person I ever got any 'historical' accuracy digs from was Jim Perrin in relation to Porth Ysgo - hardly a big deal at all in the end. He probably climbed certain lines up to about V4, it was a long time ago, it was the 70s, they didn't bother recording poxy boulder problems back then...

It ain't about the desperate clamour for fame (as you have alluded), it's about celebrating great boulder problems, that's all.

I hope you stuck up for Greg.

[tc]

Hiya,
sorry if the tone was off but, hey, passion in all things, eh?
Of course I stuck up for Greg. And all righteous people everywhere.
tc

[a dense loner]

r u two gonna come out wi your own novels soon. i'm sure it took me less time to read lord of the rings. yours in anticipation  :D

[Greg C]

This niggles me quite a lot, and I will give Tim a ring as its always hard to convey things as delicate as this in the form of emails or posts.

The thing is if you ask anyone who actually knows me I am always up for crediting people where appropriate and if you read the news on my site at numerous points I make an effort to explain that problems may well have been done before. As Simon points out people always say "oh well that were probably done 10 to 15 years ago" but when you say fine give me some details, I'll report it as such nobody really knows shit!

As for the St.Bees things being overgraded, the grades gives where obtained from Jim Arnold who asked all the old yokels (J Wilson etc) for there opinions so what the fuck are you supposed do! The same goes for the Gillercombe boulders, all the grades where obtained from the supposed Keswick rude dogs! And after my first visit I thought the grades where pretty soft but I didn't ride into Keswick banging my drum about it! The same way I didn't immediately ring up Ian Vickers and tell him his V9 arete was overgraded!

It reallly pisses me off how people assume that because your young you not only know nothing about history, you don't care! I am always asking people about the historics of venues and have read all the old FRCC information that Tim refers to, probably before he new about it!
Colin Wells has also given me a load of old info that John Gill himself researched about lakes bouldering including more detail on the Coniston info.

If anyone claims to have climbed any of the harder problems at the Gouther Crag boulders they must be fuckin old as there was 3cm of moss on some of the holds!!!!

[a dense loner]

why do people always assume things were done b4? this is a complete fallacy. i live near a fairly obscure crag, bouldering wise anyway. there is never anyone there, u bump into someone very occasionally start chattin n point somethin out n they say that they'd done it years ago. now i'm a fairly liberal guy so don't want to turn round call them a liar n take a wire brush to their fingers. some people must forget that you'd just watched them climb 5c in extremis, nevermind that what you'd just pointed out was 7a. i know some people don't believe this grade exists so i won't try to convert them but i think my point is this: i find it very hard to believe some claims now, never mind believin that every single problem in the uk under 7c+/v10 was climbed back in the day

[Jim]

does this mean your claiming sit start to the arete on sloping top then

[tc]

I guess I was just experiencing a momentary lack of faith and a moment of self-doubt after probably absorbing too much of other people's negativity over the weekend, Greg (and others), that's all.

[Trev Suddaby]

OK, first off - Greg is doing a great job with Lakesbloc and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong.
Are new problems "new"? Well, I can see both sides of this argument as it was myself who gently pointed out to Greg that his new problems on the higher Honister boulders had been cleaned and climbed a few years ago by Several Keswick lads, myself included. The details have now been corrected and everyone is happy - unless someone else comes along and claims they did them even longer ago!
So, if some old timer  says "oh, they were done years ago" - ask them exactly who by and roughly when. Thats often when the mumbling will start.
The majority of the new boulder problems that Greg has reported are not the sort of problems that could be casually dispatched by a passing walker or climber - the small holds needed often only appear from out of the layers of moss and lichen after extensive cleaning.
Tim's old timers may certainly have  "messed around" on these boulders before but it seems unlikely they climbed everything - and now knowing his source it is unlikely anything above V0 was dispatched.. ha ha.
I think Tim is wrong in saying places like Mungrisedale and Gowther have been popular bouldering venues for the last thirty years - Mungrisedale only became popular about 6 years ago - and Gowther about 3 weeks ago. All the N.Lakes lads bouldered at the Bowderstone or Armathwaite or went down to Yorkshire. These newly discovered bouldering hotspots were just seen as too insignificant.
Bouldering in the Lakes is here to stay - a guide will be produced, boulders are going to get cleaner, grades will fall, some sad old timers will get miffed off.
Some sort of "code" for bouldering in our scenic mountain environment is obviously needed. Hopefully Greg is already working on this.....
Back to the routes now..

[a dense loner]

does this mean your claiming sit start to the arete on sloping top then

no, because it's piss n obvious. but not every easy prob has been done b4

[tc]

re: "Tim, there is a rather unsavoury undercurrent to your posting (even if you are acting as a peace-keeping inter-generational go-between): namely that Greg has committed some sort of heinous crime."

None intended by me, I assure you, but, yes, the opinions of others I was passing on were quite harsh. Personally, I agree with Greg, Trev and Si on the matter.

Don't shoot the messenger!

[a dense loner]

:sniper:

[tc]

Fairy nuff  :wink: Consider the messenger shot! Love and peace TC

[Greg C]

Hey Tim,
Im not offended at all consider the matter a lively debate rather than an argument. The thing is if these guys you were talking to just contacted me and pointed out exact gripes, instead of whinging to other people, then the matter could be solved easily. My feelings are whoever you where talking to probably could not point to a single example of a retro climbed problem above V5 that I or anyone else has climbed in recent years. And don't do yourself down on the Langstrath boulders thing Im pretty sure that those sit starts you guys did will not have been done before, whatever anyone else rumours. I bet you could not find a single person who would actually say "Yes I did that line 10 to 15 years ago" but if they do my attitude is well fine we credit it to you, simple as that.

The thing is you gotta claim if you are bothered!
I'm sick of this, well I never reported it because its only a boulder problem attitude, as if this was the case these people would not raise the issue in the first place.

[webbo]

these old timers who say theyve done this and that in year dot  just how old are they? i started climbing in1972 and the fi rst sit start i ever came across was bachar cracker in yosemite in1978 so most of the early sit starts were roof cracks you ve only got  to look at when folk learnt to egyptian

[Nigel]

Most of what needs to be said has been said, although one point which can't be emphasized enough is that Greg is as good as his word when he says he will credit the old boys with problems we have claimed as new; the proof is in the pudding, the details of the Honister problems were changed as soon as he found out they had been done.

Contrary to what these grandads might think, this is not a big ego wank for Greg, he simply enjoys doing new problems in new areas and making the information available for the benefit of others. I know it wasn't the culture to claim problems back then, but it is now so come forward with valid information or stop whinging behind people's backs.

Finally, I would like very much to know exactly what hard problems were done "years ago" by old timers. Call me a cynic but I find it hard to believe they climbed every inch of rock in the Lakes up to V9 while "not really being into bouldering". They must all have been very talented climbers and it is saddening to see that most of them have suffered some kind of debilitating malfunction because these days the're all shit! Please prove me wrong, and as a bonus Greg will be able to update the information on his site. (P.S. I don't include Dougie Hall in that catch-all jibe, he's a legend!).

[tc]

re:"these days they're all shit!"
Easy, tiger - that's fighting talk where I come from.
tc

[Nigel]

Ha! OK then, how about "the're all shit, present company excepted"?!

[Trev Suddaby]

Quality of these new problems has been confirmed by a local activist :up: