To get 'the full story' would require you to go out and spend vast amounts of your spare time and energy placing glue-in bolts in lots of different circumstances. You haven't done this, you're in no position to pass judgement and imo you should refrain from doing so. You're not any kind of authority on the subject Shark.
It doesn't surprise me that the two people seemingly most eager to ........ put forward the 'bolters have a duty of care' viewpoint are
Maybe some of this testing of newly place bolts should be in the Peak area Bolting Policy?
QuoteIt doesn't surprise me that the two people seemingly most eager to ........ put forward the 'bolters have a duty of care' viewpoint areI don't think anyone finds that a controversial proposition except you. I'd be interested in a straight answer to a question I asked somewhere else but didn't get an answer to: how often does this happen? I don't mean glue failing to set and the equipper himself finding out there's a problem, but bad bolts slipping through the checking process such that the punter rocks up at the crag, puts his weight on them, and out they come. I can only think of three examples. One of them caused a fatality. The other one nearly did. This is the third, and the second involving the same equipper.But then, I don't pretend to know that much about it. Maybe it does happen all the time. Has anyone else heard of or experienced such a thing?
Out of interest JCM/Shark: over the years how many instances do you think there have been of pegs/threads ripping resulting in injury - no matter how minor, and accepting your cluelessness?Do you believe that a person placing a crucial peg/thread protecting a long runnout has exactly the same duty of care as they would if placing a bolt in the same place on the same route?
Firstly, thanks Dan.Secondly, Shark, you've changed the argument either knowingly or not. I didn't say a bolt which could be 'clipsticked, dogged etc etc etc', for argument's sake I said a bolt in the same trad route situation as the aforementioned peg.In which case, don't you see the problem with what you just said?
On the contrary I'm not the only one who finds your 'duty of care' proposition controversial. Other equippers have said exactly the same thing to me just this weekend at the crag. For one thing it depends on whose definition is used of what is and isn't negligent, and it also depends on which version of personal responsibility in climbing you agree with - I agree with the BMC participent statement and the BMC's 'bad bolts' guidance notes; you on the other hand appear to be trying to load all the responsibility onto the equipper.
I think the common-sense lies somewhere in the middle with all bolts and pegs/threads treated similarly. As per the disclaimers. JCM, where am I wrong?
... But it's not ok for a bolt that is placed in the same postion on our imaginary trad route to be anything other than 100% reliable, and if it fails the person who placed it should be held negligable and open to whatever the law throws at them???
But then you say 'ahhh there's a distinction between knowingly placing poor pegs and placing 'thought-to-be good' bolts. Except that I don't see any distinction explicitly stated anywhere to back you up - what I do see is statement after statement in every single guidebook, on the BMC website, on BMC bolting guidance, in every climbing wall etc etc.. that goes against what you said, - that climbing is a dangerous activity where you might die and that you should assume an attitude of taking personal responsibilty for your actions, and that includes treating all fixed gear with suspicion. Which part of that don't you agree with?
It's happened twice that I know of in north wales in the last 12 months, with no injuries thankfully - that is, someone other than the equipper unexpectedly pulling out an unset glue-in. Not counting the one that happened to me. As you rightly point out - not everything that happens to do with climbing makes it to your attention.
It doesn't surprise me that the two people seemingly most eager to condem a bolter's mistakes and put forward the 'bolters have a duty of care' viewpoint are, firstly, a climber well-known for his strong oppostion to bolt-protected climbing ...
JCM demonstrating his strong opposition to bolt protected climbing: