[gruffalo]

Is it worth spending most of my weekly training session using an open hand position I was told this will improve my crimp strength but not visa-versa. 

[Dolly]

yes

[abarro81]

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,19028.msg339115.html#msg339115
There's more around if you dig too.
Basically: probably not, train everything. Though obviously it depends on goals/if you spend all weekend crimping etc. I train open mostly on the fingerboard as I crimp lots on peak lime but don't get to pull much on pockets.

[Dolly]

Sorry, didnt mean to be so curt, I hadnt finished and Ill post more later

[gruffalo]

 :hug. Sounds like there are a few different views on this one. I finding my weekness is open handed grip so that's the one I should concentrate on. At the same time don't have any choice but to open hand on monos......

[saltbeef]

no

what you train you get better at

this stems from something simpson wrote on moonclimbing based on no facts...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21576719

[shark]

Slightly off topic but Julian Saunders (athlon.au injuries guru) made an off hand remark that climbing open handed automatically gives you more endurance. Anyone know more ?

[jwi]

Colour me sceptical

We conclude that the sport climbing finger grip does not affect the maximal resultant four fingertip force nor the fatigue rates of the extrinsic muscles of the hand. Hence, the finger grip force and the fatigue rates were not relevant in the decision made by climbers to use a ‘crimp’ or a ‘slope’ grip.

[Lopez]

For any one able to get a good translation from Spanish (google translate won't cut it) this is a very good read http://www.rocanbolt.com/2011/11/regletear-o-no-regletear-ciencia-de-la.html

It basically analyses the results of different studies in which the hands of dead people (yep, that's right) were subjected to forces while crimping and open handing by externally pulling on the tendons and observing how they work and the force distribution.

To keep on topic with the thread, when full crimping on tiny holds and open handing the main forces are being held by the same tendon (deep common, attached to the last falanx) whereas when half crimping medium sized holds the main forces are being held by the superficialis. So from that could be assumed that full crimp and open hand training would strengthen the same tendon/muscle groups, whereas half crimping would require specific training.

However, it was observed that there's a second 'phenomena' that affects the full crimping position, and that is the friction between tendons and pulleys which enables the articulation to 'lock' in place allowing more forces to be withheld due to the deep common flexor being choked by both the superficialis and A2 pulley like with a rope knot. (Apparently bats have it developed in a way that it fully locks, which is why they can hang upside down and sleep with no effort whatsoever). This forces are quite high and enough to rupture them if not trained adequately to withstand these forces, so using your newly acquired crimp strength obtained from open handing training will guarantee tendonitiis and pulley ruptures all round.

So to sum it up. Open handing strength will transfer to full crimps BUT only with regards the main tendon, leaving you prone to injury on the secondary tendons and pulleys at play, so full crimps have to be trained to complement open handing training. Half crimps need to be trained individually.

[Lopez]

And for those who like numbers, in the 2009 study...

- 50% of the A4 pulleys snapped in the crimp tests, none in the open handing.

- Tendons were tested 'to rupture' (bear in mind these are non-climber's hands)

       - Open handing, tendons snapped at 37.1kgs with a force transferred to the fingertips of 10.5kgs
       - Crimping, tendons snapped at 34.8kgs with a force transferred to the fingertips of 16.1kgs

- Forces acting in the pulleys when open handing were 12.1kgs on the A2  and 10.3 on the A4
- Forces acting in the pulleys when crimping were 28,7kgs on the A2 and 22,6kgs on the A4
       
I'd like to see the results with Steve Mac's tendons... Testing machine snapped 100% of the time before tendon failure 

[Tommy]

If I remember rightly, almost complete capillary occlusion will occur at 30% of max in a muscle, so I suppose you'd have to find out if open handing/crimping caused varying capillary occlusion at the same force applied.

I'd always thought it was better to open hand, but I think it's more a natural deduction that you're drawn to because:

When you're crimping on a route = you're trying hard on the moves = you get pumped
When you're open handing on a route = you're often not at your limit = you're less pumped.

The above is a massive generalisation, but I think across the whole spectrum of routes/route experiences, this would hold true.

So................. I thought, why not test out this on crimp master himself Ed Hamer. He's a monster on crimps, but would he be any good if I forced him to open hand. Well, interestingly, his endurance was actually better on the crimp. Make me have a bit of a re-think.

I tried it out on myself as well and I found I have no difference at all if I crimp or not. I was surprised to say the least.

[gruffalo]

So in the case of doing to much openhanded training and avoiding tendinitis crimp training is just as important to balance things out. Have people been finding this problem with just training open hand training or has this information straight out of a text book. I've been beasting my fingers over the last year or so all open handed and seen great results with no sign of pain.

[a dense loner]

what does your post mean?

[gruffalo]

I was replying to Lopez post about tendinitis occurring if open handed grip was over used. And wonders if any one has suffered from this..

[Oldmanmatt]

Umm..
As I read Lopez's post.
If you train hard open handed, you will be at risk of injury; if you start crimping hard.

So far I'm getting the " bit of both" vibe.

Or as me ol' Granny would say...
" everything in moderation and nothing to extreme"

Well, not too extreme..

Maybe..

If I remember when to stop/ realise I'm overdoing it.

[Nibile]

Trying hard is dangerous regardless of the prehension. I have had injuries both open handing and crimping. But this doesn't say much...

[gruffalo]

Bottom line is to keep intraducing new loads to as many possible finger positions with out getting a serious injury, the line is very fine. Risk it for a biscuit.

[Richie Crouch]

Open hand for joy, crimp for glory. 

[Dexter]

so by the looks of it doesn't matter how you're trying to hold it as long as you're trying to crush the holds into oblivion 

[SOH]

There has been no conclusive evidence to support whether strength gains by training open-hand grip solely will transfer well to crimp grip.  There may be some slight overlap with strength gains but not proportionally.

As has been said by many pro climbers and strong boys and girls alike, train every grip to make sure you have a well-rounded arsenal to use for the problem/route. You use the proper tool for the job.

If you’re comfortable crimping holds but fail open handing, obviously a bit of extra training for open hand grip will see improvements.

[Seb]

A bit off topic but this might be the best place to ask. I basically never crimp and my crimp strength is so much worse than my open hand and half crimp strength. Is it worth me starting to train crimp strength to get it up to speed or should I just focus on open handing everything. Im not sure but it feels like it might be holding me back on really small holds.

[Krank]

i have no science knowledge to back this up but i trained for a year for font just on slopers and when i got there i found i was my strongest ever on crimps aswell.

this may not help but it is true

[shark]

A bit off topic but this might be the best place to ask. I basically never crimp and my crimp strength is so much worse than my open hand and half crimp strength. Is it worth me starting to train crimp strength to get it up to speed or should I just focus on open handing everything. Im not sure but it feels like it might be holding me back on really small holds.

Yes train crimps and climb using crimps, just not exclusively. Some holds you need to crimp. Look at photos or vids of boulderers on the hardest moves of the hardest problems and you'll see a lot of crimping. Even if physiogically there is a crossover from training and using other grips it won't be 100%. Also there is there is a certain mental attitude to boning and pulling hard on crimps that you need to learn to love.

[Seb]

Cheers, Ill have to get on it then, start out slowly and build up.

[SOH]

Cheers, Ill have to get on it then, start out slowly and build up.

Definitely start off slowly. In fact i would actually recommend using a finger board to train your crimp grip in isolation before trying to crimp on problems where it is necessary (use a kick board or some support for your feet if it feels too intense to hang your body weight).

I was like you and open handed everything, went on a climbing trip and tried a problem with a very thin edge that had to be crimped which i just could not hold. Decided to utilise/train crimping more in my climbing and a year on now i have very dodgy PIP and DIP finger joints on my left middle finger. So yes build the strength slowly, there's more than just pulley tears and dodgy elbows and shoulders we have to worry about.