[Motown]

Chalking footholds 

Dartmoor footholds are covered these days

[Coops_13]

Welcome to Colorado...

[Fiend]

0:38 is a particularly good one, given that how high the climber's eyes are they can actually see the damn hold!

[crzylgs]

Why use one outrageously long tick mark then two or three will make an even more obnoxious eyesore?

Also, what are the odds on any attempt being made to remove the shameful ticks once finished?

[jwi]

Starts with 5 min of driving to the crag and close-ups of sponsored items before climbing at my favourite bouldering area in Japan. Lots of strong climbing happening, but someone should tell them that the tick marks are not OK. The worsts I have seen.

[finbarrr]

That video just makes me sad. I love seeing them climb, but.. the tick marks, the seperately packaged slices, the non-sit-starts

[Fiend]

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/baslow_edge-20/bob_moss-645579#photos&gid=1&pid=1

A beauty here, along with the photos and problem aesthetics.

[scragrock]

Righto i am going try again.

Does this thread actually help STOP people putting excessive amounts of chalk on rock?

Is this thread a tribal " look at them, they are awful. We are great" kind of thing?

Would our time be better spent actually gently educating climbers on a preferred approach?

Just a thought.

[joel182]

Not everything has to be tailored towards optimally persuading people who are behaving badly to improve their behaviour, some things can just be about an expression of frustration.

[scragrock]

I understand the frustration but i worry this is simply an echo chamber that in the end achieves little but the ridicule of {i suspect} inexperienced climbers.

It just feels a lot like bullying to me.

[Adam Lincoln]

No one mentioned those huge ticks on floatin, the new v16? Or are they ok on big numbers?

[Fiend]

It just feels a lot like bullying to me.

It's more mockery than bullying.

TBH, don't want to get called out on dabs or daft tickmarks?? Don't put fucking footage / pictures on the internet. And if you don't know that "the ground isn't in" or that the ethics and behaviour guidelines in almost all bouldering guides to "brush off excess chalk" also apply to you, then don't put your fucking footage up either.


Adam: I think there were at least two shots in that footage showing the holds without tickmarks, implying they got washed off or brushed off at some points. Also they weren't that OTT by the standards of some modern tickmarking.

Edit: Start of Session 4 and Session 9, you can see the holds un-ticked. I was actually going to call this one out but did glimpse the unticked holds.

[Wellsy]

I mostly use this thread as a threat of consequences for certain people I know who I could name and shame if they returned to their reprehensible ways

[jwi]

No one mentioned those huge ticks on floatin, the new v16? Or are they ok on big numbers?

Someone must educate the new generation of Japanese inner-city wads about tick-marks. I have tried to leave polite comments on videos, but I doubt it helps. Mateusz Haladaj once got up a 9a in Santa Linya he had already done with a spray bottle and a brush to clean up some ridiculous tick-marks a Japanese climber had left after dogging the route and then told him that this is unacceptable in Europe. Maybe that helped...

I fear that this is one of the situations when the hierarchical structure of the Japanese society works agains them as Koyamada-sama seem to be very free with his chalk painting.

[cheque]

Not everything has to be tailored towards optimally persuading people who are behaving badly to improve their behaviour, some things can just be about an expression of frustration.

  Can’t believe it’s got to be said. I can’t speak for anyone else but I don’t feel like the 40 seconds a month I spend clicking on this thread and thinking “hoo that’s bad one”  massively eats into the the time or pool of energy I have available for being an advocate for good crag behaviour .

The most recent example’s of someone who’s needlessly drawn a 60cm line of chalk on the rock with what appears to be a loop-the-loop in the middle. It’s not a hate crime to find that ridiculous.

[scragrock]

I mostly use this thread as a threat of consequences for certain people I know who I could name and shame if they returned to their reprehensible ways

Mob rule? and a little bit heavy handed maybe?

Fiend, i get your point but perhaps the youth/insta gang don't read the Not so small print in their glossy guide advising on the agreed ethics re chalk.
As for dabs, why do you care if they take the tick? they are cheating themselves Not you. the fact that is posted/published on-line only means its recorded for ALL to see.

i think it diminishes us to mock them for it.

jwi, I approve of your direct but subtle approach and perhaps you are right and it has little affect but i apricate you trying.

[Wellsy]

I mostly use this thread as a threat of consequences for certain people I know who I could name and shame if they returned to their reprehensible ways

Mob rule? and a little bit heavy handed maybe?

Fiend, i get your point but perhaps the youth/insta gang don't read the Not so small print in their glossy guide advising on the agreed ethics re chalk.
As for dabs, why do you care if they take the tick? they are cheating themselves Not you. the fact that is posted/published on-line only means its recorded for ALL to see.

i think it diminishes us to mock them for it.

jwi, I approve of your direct but subtle approach and perhaps you are right and it has little affect but i apricate you trying.

Tbh it's a joke, and taken as such

[lagerstarfish]

Is this thread a tribal " look at them, they are awful. We are great" kind of thing?

Yes.

UK outdoor hobbies are all about tribalism.

[Wood FT]

It just feels a lot like bullying to me.

Have you ever been bullied?

[scragrock]

It just feels a lot like bullying to me.

Have you ever been bullied?

Yes, yes i have. as a child and as an adult but for my eternal shame i have also bullied.
my hope is i can steer people away from that pain in all its forms.

[Wood FT]

Okay, I’m sorry that’s happened, you know the weight of the word then.

[Fiend]

It just feels a lot like bullying to me.

Okay. I was thinking about this on one of my many tedious kneehab walks around the moors, and I hope I've remember my counterpoint accurately.

I think there are a few key defining features to bullying:

1. Specific individual targeted
- i.e. it's a person, or a group, targeting one particular individual constantly and relentlessly.

2. No justifiable reason
- i.e. although there might be something about the target that the bullies are picking on, it's not a issue which would generally be regarded as justifying any negative response.

3. Subject matter not promoted by target
- i.e. whatever issue the bullies are picking on / using for justification, whilst it might be something publicly known about the target, it's not something that the target actively seeks to promote nor publicise, they're not seeking to draw attention to it.


With regards to Tickmark Hall Of Shame / Bring Out Your Dabs:

1. Specific individual targeted??
No - it's never relentlessly targeting one person, it's about anyone and everyone who demonstrates the behaviour in question, big or small, famous or irrelevant, one-off or repeat offender. Generally the target isn't even named nor given any context, it's just "a climber who did this".

2. No justifiable reaon??
No - the reasons might be very small in the global scheme of things, but they are actual reasons in terms of negative behaviour (excessive marking of rock with chalk / falsely claiming success on a problem with assistance) that could warrant a negative response (even as gentle as "please brush that off" or "maybe try that without walking along the pads").

3. Subject matter not promoted by target??
No - the behaviour is clearly visible in images / videos that are readily available on public social media, with no attempt to keep them hidden for "friends and family", and often promoted by the poster (and the level of mockery on here is sometimes in direct correlation to how heavily they are promoted).


IF the situation was different....Say the following example: A climber with a particular sketchy style puts a series of unlisted videos of him climbing on youtube, and in most videos he's slapping un-necessarily. Someone digs hard, finds these videos, and each time posts about them, mocking that one individual - then THAT would be more like bullying. Targeting one individual, mocking something that isn't generally negative, and finding stuff that the target isn't trying to show off.


That's my 0:02. Sorry yes it was a long boring walk.

[mrjonathanr]

On that subject, the classic three criteria are hurting someone in a manner which is repetitive, which is intentional and where there is an imbalance of power.

This site has loads of useful information, https://anti-bullyingalliance.org.uk/
including free online training, just register https://learning.anti-bullyingalliance.org.uk/

[DAVETHOMAS90]

No one mentioned those huge ticks on floatin, the new v16? Or are they ok on big numbers?

I did actually, but that was shut down.

My point was that fingers point where they find it easy to point - and look for excuses to do so.

What isn't helpful, is that a lot of the shaming is about wanting someone else to feel crap/lower/beneath, and nothing to do with wanting people to be more aware.

A lot of bullying is about excluding people, and Scragrock's comments should be thought about seriously, in my opinion. I do hate tick marks though!

"I understand the frustration but i worry this is simply an echo chamber that in the end achieves little but the ridicule of {i suspect} inexperienced climbers." - which is why (reflecting on Jwi's comments too) - it's good to try to appeal to more experienced/prolific climbers to show the way.

[SamT]

I don't actually have a huge objection to the odd tick mark here and there, especially on things that are absolutely on someones limit and the hold really hard/awkward to see/hit.  So long as they are brushed off afterwards.  I think they only deserve a place in this thread when they are just totally un-necessary and overly large/blatant

I have a much bigger problem with people chalking footholds for no apparent reason.  Its just like they haven't really thought though the physics of what they're doing and why they're doing it.