[Wellsy]

Should have just pulled on and campused to that good edge I suppose

[teestub]

I'm not sure it's such a rare view as you say but I've no real idea.

Of the hundreds of years of collective bouldering experience in here, I don't think you’ll find a single person who would support this view. If you think it’s not rare then I’d suggest it must be in a subset of folk you climb with. 

[Dingdong]

If anything to me it feels like with grit technique is 90% of the difficulty, a lot of stuff is tekkers and then feels piss when you refine it so much you flow on the send go.

[Wellsy]

I'm not sure it's such a rare view as you say but I've no real idea.

Of the hundreds of years of collective bouldering experience in here, I don't think you’ll find a single person who would support this view. If you think it’s not rare then I’d suggest it must be in a subset of folk you climb with.

Again, it's out there, i dunno how common a view it is. But I don't think there's much point carrying on the discussion tbh as its not like anyone here is it disagreement on it

[Tom de Gay]

This sounds like a myth perpetuated by strong folk who have had a hard time on slabs with supposedly moderate grades.

In their defence, I have a hard time differentiating the difficulty of most Font slabs. Forêt Noire (7A+) feels as hard to me as Super Prestat (7B+).

Some problems in Font do seem have a bit of danger money attached to the grade, but it's not entirely clear how much, and doesn't seem to apply to old school terrifiers like Le Pilier Légendaire at Éléphant, which is E5 6b but was 6C back in the day.

[Wellsy]

Is that E6 6b on the "West Side Story is E4" grading scale or the "West Side Story is E6" grading scale

[Tom de Gay]

Is that E6 6b on the "West Side Story is E4" grading scale or the "West Side Story is E6" grading scale

Since the "West Side Story is E6" grading scale was invented last week, I was referring the decades-old established scale, which conveniently allows comparison across climbs of a similar type: a bit harder than White Wand, not as hard as Ulysses.

[Johnny Brown]

If anything to me it feels like with grit technique is 90% of the difficulty, a lot of stuff is tekkers and then feels piss when you refine it so much you flow on the send go.

I used to think that, but I was using power more than I thought. Since passing 40 my technique genuinely seems to be still improving, but my power is waning distressingly fast, as evidenced by problems like Brad Pit slipping from my repertoire. Sad times.

I do remember a series of training articles in OTE in the mid-nineties, in which the jist was that by the secret to all climbing was getting stronger. Not only would the moves get easier, you'd also gain stamina as who gets pumped on easy moves? At the time I assumed 'stronger' was a synonym for 'better', but in hindsight I realised they just meant stronger.

Since the "West Side Story is E6" grading scale was invented last week, I was referring the decades-old established scale

   

[abarro81]

a bit harder than White Wand.

WSS is a lot harder than White Wand though innit 

[ToxicBilberry]

If anything to me it feels like with grit technique is 90% of the difficulty, a lot of stuff is tekkers and then feels piss when you refine it so much you flow on the send go.

I used to think that, but I was using power more than I thought. Since passing 40 my technique genuinely seems to be still improving, but my power is waning distressingly fast, as evidenced by problems like Brad Pit slipping from my repertoire. Sad times.

I do remember a series of training articles in OTE in the mid-nineties, in which the jist was that by the secret to all climbing was getting stronger. Not only would the moves get easier, you'd also gain stamina as who gets pumped on easy moves? At the time I assumed 'stronger' was a synonym for 'better', but in hindsight I realised they just meant stronger.

Since the "West Side Story is E6" grading scale was invented last week, I was referring the decades-old established scale

   

Your powers are weak old man

[Johnny Brown]

And yes, I really do think that if you took the crux “move” off the headwall on Positron or the crux of Right Wall and transferred it to a bouldering wall that it might be pushing 4b if you were being optimistic.

Whilst clearly this is flat out BONKERS, I think the kernel of truth you are alluding to here is that some Welsh Extremes are easy. But some are not. I'm pretty confident the crux of Vulcan, for example, would still be 6a at ground level, and of course many routes exist outside Wales. If you'd done all the E5s at Chee Tor I'm confident you'd have a different view. Or even just warmed up on Queer Street.

Typically what the UK tech grade really is is how hard the hardest move feels in the context of the route.

Which is fine, not because it's a sort of french grade (and only rarely is it like Positron) - it's because in the context of the route is the only place that move exists.

the grade of "the hardest move" being a ridiculous nonsense.  Which move?  A hand movement?  A foot movement?  A sequence of movement? – Oh wait – that’s what we use Font grades for…  (And yes, that's the bit that JB was mocking previously, but it doesn't remove the absurdity of pretending you're grading the hardest move).

You are literally the only person who I've heard express this opinion. No one has a problem with defining a move, because it doesn't need a definition. We all know what we mean. Sometimes it's a slap, or a short pull on a hold, sometimes a tricky sequence, but we all know what a hard move is, and that the UK tech grade broadly tells us how hard it will feel.

Which is my beef with JB's version of grading things like WSS,

As Tom has so neatly illustrated, it's not my version, it's THE version. The discussion of whether the tech grade was for the hardest section of additive over the pitch was had right back at its inception. Remember Ron on Supersonic - "could this be Britain's first 6c?". Well no, it's 6a, but at the time some people were adding lots of 6a up to make 6c. But why do that when that's what the E5 bit represents?

It is too late in the day to change the entire grading system for all grades to an E grade and a French or Font grade, and it’s unnecessary

It certainly is. However, all your thinking need not be wasted...

what I'm trying to do, is persuade a few people that it actually is possible to do what the eGraders tried to do but didn't get right.

But which people? It's been staring us all in the face! They've got the budget, and the reach. You've got the vision. And, I believe, some programming expertise?

eGrader 2.0!!! This time we get it right!

You pitch, they pay!

If it works, you get to change the climbing world. If it doesn't, they get loads of clicks and you get rich anyway. AND you get to appear on youtube in a lab coat while the wideboyz 'gently' mock your opinion of 4b.

[Fultonius]

I'm not sure it's such a rare view as you say but I've no real idea.

Of the hundreds of years of collective bouldering experience in here, I don't think you’ll find a single person who would support this view. If you think it’s not rare then I’d suggest it must be in a subset of folk you climb with.

I suspect the subset that Wellsy climbs with is both larger and more active than the knowledgeable old grumblies might expect. I and I would suspect there's perhaps less intermixing too...

Different Venn's, innit.?

[teestub]

Without making a political analogy, being larger and more active doesn’t make something any more right 😆

[Wellsy]

I'm not sure it's such a rare view as you say but I've no real idea.

Of the hundreds of years of collective bouldering experience in here, I don't think you’ll find a single person who would support this view. If you think it’s not rare then I’d suggest it must be in a subset of folk you climb with.

I suspect the subset that Wellsy climbs with is both larger and more active than the knowledgeable old grumblies might expect. I and I would suspect there's perhaps less intermixing too...

Different Venn's, innit.?

I climb with a lot of people of different levels and experiences and it appears to be a random strain that pops up in various people. I don't really climb with people who overlap with your UKB types, although some people I climb with are mega psyched lifers (just of a very different strain)

Many people I know find bouldering grades very frustrating, as an observation, for various reasons. I don't necessarily agree with that mind you.

[Fultonius]

Without making a political analogy, being larger and more active doesn’t make something any more right 😆

Agreed! I guess what I was meaning was that even though folks in here might not come across it much, doesn't mean it's just a tiny subgroup - it might be 80% of the recent indoor to outdoor crowd? (not saying that's you Wellsy, just an example).

And the point being, it's maybe significant enough that it could start to sway the general opinion. (move the overton window, to use another political analogy).

These people will still be voting on grades on UKC etc....

[Wellsy]

I reckon recently indoor to outdoors would be accurate yeah

I'll say that it's a sufficiently prevalent view that for a while that's what I thought it was because that's what people told me it was

("That's stupid" yes I know)

[crimpinainteasy]

If anything to me it feels like with grit technique is 90% of the difficulty, a lot of stuff is tekkers and then feels piss when you refine it so much you flow on the send go.

I used to think that, but I was using power more than I thought. Since passing 40 my technique genuinely seems to be still improving, but my power is waning distressingly fast, as evidenced by problems like Brad Pit slipping from my repertoire. Sad times.

I do remember a series of training articles in OTE in the mid-nineties, in which the jist was that by the secret to all climbing was getting stronger. Not only would the moves get easier, you'd also gain stamina as who gets pumped on easy moves? At the time I assumed 'stronger' was a synonym for 'better', but in hindsight I realised they just meant stronger.

Since the "West Side Story is E6" grading scale was invented last week, I was referring the decades-old established scale

   

I guess as someone else itt already said technique and strength are deeply intertwined. Being able to keep maximal weight on your feet requires a strong posterial chain, in addition to good balance and spacial awareness. Equally, even climbing on a steep board requires good technique and maintaining maximum body tension in order to reach the highest grades.

[Nemo]

"clearly this is flat out BONKERS" - JB

Wouldn't be the first time.

"you get to appear on youtube in a lab coat" - JB

  I think I'll pass.

"As Tom has so neatly illustrated, it's not my version, it's THE version" - JB

Noone's denying that's how micro routes have been graded up till now.  But I think it's for a whole variety of different reasons, typically what Tom was saying - ie: things were graded just by comparing to nearby similar things, and not worrying about whether that made sense in a larger context. 

What I meant by your version of E grades, is that you're the only person I've ever heard try and actually rationalise it - by suggesting that you discount the physical difficulty of boulder problems except by how it affects how tired you are for the stuff higher up.  I've genuinely never heard anyone else ever express that view. And as I said above, I don't think it stands up to any real scrutiny.  If everyone wants to keep different grading systems for micro routes, then so be it. But in that case I don't think attempting to rationalise it with any kind of definition that works across the board is ever going to work.

Also, THE version is subject to change right?  There's various shorter things that have been upgraded in recent times.  e.g: things like China Syndrome.

I guess I've always thought that flashing something like WSS would be really impressive - as much as any normal E6's (outside of grit micro routes) elsewhere I can think of.

And all this really started with the headpoint of an E8 being reported in the significant repeats thread.  It's the same issue right?  It's not 1999, so you wouldn't expect headpointing an E8 to be particularly noteworthy.  It was news as that route is Font 8A+, massive, amazing, and clearly nails.  ie: If things were consistent, then it should be more than E8, just by virtue of the physical difficulty alone. 

I guess in my fantasy more logical world, I would just like to see E grades be used consistently across the board, and the highball type, micro route world has always seemed to me to use them completely differently to everywhere else.  Might be self consistent, but makes any kind of news along the lines of someone has flashed E8 essentially meaningless, without knowing the actual details of the route.  And makes any attempt to come up with some rational way of grading new hard routes doomed, as it's different in different places and you can only grade things relative to the stuff in the immediate vicinity.  I guess that's the context bit that JB and others like and I don't.

"eGrader 2.0!!! This time we get it right!" - JB

Haha.  I did think that whole episode was a bit of a shame, as that group of people had (and still have) the chance to really reset things a bit.  There's clearly bunfights to be had about how wide grades are at the top end and all the normal kind of stuff you'd expect.  But if trad climbing news is ever going to mean anything, then I understand why they were at least trying to make things a bit more consistent and rational.  To me, that just really wasn't a good way of going about it.

Where do I think it went wrong?
- They tried to apply it to routes under E6 which to me was a terrible idea (unless website hits was actually the aim obviously).  Why?  Because French grades are not well established for those routes, and typically are disagreed about by a very large margin.  ie: When people are onsighting trad routes, something that's Fr5+ can easily feel Fr7a if you get the fear and hang on too hard, or cock up the sequence, or whatever.  French grades are really only well established on routes that are regularly headpointed, which is typically upwards of E6. 
- They got the basic conversions from French grades to safe trad E grades out. By a bit low down.  By a lot high up. 
- They over egged the danger element.
- There's a whole pile of factors other than danger that can add to the E grade for any particular level of physical difficulty.

The combination of the above meant that as soon as people looked at it, it was out by miles for pretty much any route anyone threw at it.

That said, I do think some of the criticism they got was a little unfair.  They seemed to be attacked from all sides for suggesting they wanted a linear scale.  Clearly to anyone with a maths background, the idea that any grading system is ever going to be "linear", or even how you would attempt to define linear in that context, is a non starter. 

But I assume that what they actually meant was a linear mapping to French grades, which was essentially the heart of what they were trying to do.

ie: What the whole eGrader amounted to was this.  Their conversion was, for safe routes:
7b - 7b+ routes would be E5
7c - 7c+  routes would be E6
8a - 8a+ routes would be E7
8b - 8b+ routes would be E8
8c - 8c+ routes would be E9
9a - 9a+ routes would be E10
9b - 9b+ routes would be E11

Think of some safe cracks - Cave Route Right 7b+ E6, Requiem - 8a+ E8.  Out, but not too far out I suppose.
But it gets worse higher up, where I'd really have expected them to get it right.

ie: they didn't seem to notice, that in practice, E grades have got narrower relative to French grades towards the top end. 
That everything, no matter how safe, that's ever been given Fr 8c, has been given E10.
And that giving something E12 with their conversion would be the same as saying it should be overall the same difficulty as climbing a Fr 9c.  I'm guessing now that Ondra has climbed an E12 in 3 days, he'd disagree that it's as big a deal as climbing Silence.
And that if you did change things so that E grades mapped to a similar width of French grades as happens between E5 and E8.  Then it would have the opposite effect to what they seemed to actually want - which seemed to be to have narrower E grades above E9.

So it was miles out and got worse the higher up the scale you went.  I'm really not claiming any special powers to suggest that it shouldn't be that hard to get that conversion roughly right - it just amounts to writing a decent graded list of hard routes and then actually looking at it.  But having had a quick look at doing that, it isn't going to be a clean 2 Fr grades per E grade (ie: the linear rebooting I think they were hoping for), unless you want to downgrade pretty much everything over E9 significantly (which again, seemed to be the opposite of their actual intentions).

But...

It really didn't need to be like that right.  To me all it needed was:
- An attempt at a graded list of of things over E9.  Which they are clearly in a much better position to do than we are.  And is by far the best way of seeing how grades are currently applied for hard routes and how it could be improved.  And whether or not E grades actually map to a particular width of Fr grades, and whether or not changing it to do so would or wouldn't be a good idea.
- An attempt at a clear, simple definition for E grades (which is where they would always run up against the discussion we've had on this thread).

I've said earlier how I think you could have a clear, simple definition for E grades.  I don't think it's terribly revolutionary, as it's the exact definition that's in the vast majority of guidebooks - ie: the overall grade of the route.  But applying it consistently, would certainly involve upsetting some people by upgrading various micro routes and adjusting some other inconsistencies in local areas.  Is that worth doing?  Well to me, yes.  To others by the sounds of things, no. 

On the other side of it, if someone else doesn't do it, then I will at some point try and produce a much more thorough list of hard routes, largely out of curiosity.  But ultimately, doing that properly requires people way more in the loop than I am these days.

"I've not really been able to work out what is actually at stake in this thread" - Andy Popp

In terms of this thread, probably just whether we're keeping Fiend entertained or not. 
I suppose, with the debate more generally, it's perhaps whether the younger generation of climbers think this is all insane and ditch E grades.  Or whether people are still going to be having endless debates in 100 years time because of the inherent inconsistencies in the system.

[Nemo]

Edit:
Too late to modify the eGrader bit in the above.  I really shouldn't post when I'm tired.
Actually, the eGrader conversions above are for bolted routes, not trad routes where even for safe cracks they were adding a bit. So my examples were rubbish - it actually works fine for things like Cave Route Right and Requiem.

So actually, their conversion for well protected trad routes, is:
7a+ - 7b routes would be E5
7b+ - 7c  routes would be E6
7c+ - 8a routes would be E7
8a+ - 8b routes would be E8
8b+ - 8c routes would be E9
8c+ - 9a routes would be E10
9a+ - 9b routes would be E11

Which is pretty accurate in terms of safe stuff up to a certain point.
 

[ToxicBilberry]

That has been the opinion given to me by lots of experienced boulderers. I personally think it should and it's stupid if it doesn't, and worse than that it would appear to apply in some cases and not in others, but it's definitely not unusual to hear. In fact the first people who took me outside said, the grade is about physical difficulty, not technical demand.

I like the sound of this, it could be known as the 'Simpson System', in which 'doing' a problem involves pulling on and cranking out a crux power move then stepping off and declaring the problem piss without ever doing it.

[andy moles]

Many people I know find bouldering grades very frustrating, as an observation, for various reasons.

Bouldering grades are all over the place (except at the higher end maybe, where they are forensically and painstakingly analysed), but I think to some extent this is because something that has only a few moves inevitably highlights differences in physique and relative strengths more than on longer routes, which unless they are quite niche in style or cruxy tend to iron out to a more even consensus. Also sometimes they're just wrong, obvs.

[ToxicBilberry]

This thread links to some reading I’ve been doing about inductive and deductive reasoning. French sport climbing grades lend themselves to a predominantly inductive process as opposed to the British traditional grading system which, as Andy alluded to, tell you something more about the climb when taken in context. To try and deconstruct then reduce the grading system to a purely utilitarian ‘can I climb X’ is in keeping with the spirit of the age, but a sorry state of affairs.

[Nemo]

Having dug a bit further, there's already some pretty comprehensive lists of hard UK trad climbing on remus's site:
https://climbing-history.org/list/28/the-hardest-trad-routes-in-the-world
https://climbing-history.org/list/12/timeline-of-hard-trad-ascents-by-british-people
So not much point in reinventing the wheel.

The following includes a handful of things from outside the UK, but no doubt there's lots of that stuff missing.
With the French / Font grades added in to the above lists, the E10s and above look something like this:


E12
Bon Voyage               9a         Annot (France)      James Pearson (2023), Adam Ondra, Sébastien Berthe   

Hard E11 ?
Echo Wall               8c/8c+        Ben Nevis         Dave Macleod (2008)

E11
Tribe                  9a/9a+      Cadarese (Italy)   Jacopo Larcher (2019), James Pearson
The Best Things...         9a         Gunks (US)          William Moss (2023)
Crown Royale            9a         Norway            Pete Whittaker (2023)

Hard E10 / E11 ?
Rhapsody               8c/8c+        Dumbarton         Dave Macleod (2006), >3 repeats
Meltdown               8c+         Yosemite (US)      Beth Rodden (2008), >3 repeats
The Recovery Drink         8c+         Norway            Nicolas Favresse (2013), Daniel Jung, Pete Whittaker
Power Ranger            8c         Chattanooga, USA   James Pearson (2017)
Immortal               ?         Maidens Bluff      Franco Cookson (2021), James Pearson
Lexicon                  8b+         Pavey Ark         Neil Gresham (2021), >3 repeats

E10                  
El Boulder del Pedal      8c+         La Pedriza (Spain)   Ignacio Mulero (2023)
Blackbeard's Tears         8c+         Promontory (US)      Ethan Pringle (2016), Connor Herson
Into The Sun            8c+       Switzerland         Bernd Zangerl (2017), Jacopo Larcher
Magic Line               8c/8c+      Yosemite         Ron Kauk (1996), Lonnie Kauk, Hazel Findlay, Carlo Traversi
Crown Duel               8c          Norway            Pete Whittaker (2019)
Stranger Than Fiction      8c         US               Mason Earle (2015), Brittany Goris, Lor Sabourin, Pete Whittaker
Mind Riot               8c         Binnein Shuas      Dave MacLeod (2019)
Hard Cheese               8c         Bright Beck Crag   Craig Matheson (2021)
The Sandman               8c         Nesscliffe         Franco Cookson (2022)
GreatNess Wall            8c         Nesscliffe         Steve McClure (2019)
What we do in the Shadows   8c         Duntelchaig         Robbie Phillips   (2021), Dave Macleod                        
Eigerdosis               8c         Norway            Pete Whittaker (2023)
Century Crack            8c         US               Tom Randall (2011), Pete Whittaker, Danny Parker, Fumiya Nakamura
The Pura Pura            8c         Italy            Tom Randall (2014), Pete Whittaker
Cobra Crack               8c         Squamish         Sonnie Trotter (2006), >3 repeats
Choronzon               8b+             Pembroke         Neil Mawson (2014), Steve McClure
Equilibrium               8b+             Burbage            Neil Bentley (2000), Neil Gresham, James Pearson
Doctor Doolittle         8a             Curbar            John Arran (2001)
Sleepy Hollow              ?             The Roaches         Pete Whittaker (2013), Ryan Pasquill
Baron Greenback Direct      8b+             Wimberry         Pete Whittaker
Die By The Drop            ?             GlenFinnan         Dave Macleod, Dave Birkett      
To Hell And Back         7c+             Hell’s Lum         Dave Macleod (2007), Dave Birkett   
Divine Moments Of Truth      ?           North York Moors   Franco Cookson (2015)
Coldfinger               ?         Long Haven         Gordon Lennox (2023)
A Moment of Clarity         Font 8B      Thorn Crag         John Gaskins (2006)
Smart Went Crazy         8b         Eldo Canyon (US)   Matt Segal (2009), William Moss
Too Big to Flail         Font 7C+   Bishop (US)         Alex Honnold (2012), Nina Williams, Lonnie Kauk
The Bull               8b+         Squamish (Canada)   Jeremy Smith (2013), Ben Harnden
The Bigger Baron         8b+         Wimberry         Pete Whittaker (2014)
Nothing Lasts            ?         Sandy Crag         Franco Cookson (2017)
Final Score               8a+         Iron Crag         Neil Gresham (2020)
Magical Thinking         8a+         Pavey Ark         Mathew Wright (2023)
Black Thistle            8b+         Polldubh         Mathew Wright (2023), Dave Macleod
Direquiem               8b+         Dumbarton         Sonnie Trotter (2008)
Le Voyage               8b+         Annot (France)      James Pearson (2017).  >3 repeats, including a flash by Sebastien Berthe.
Viceroy                  8c         US               Matt Wilder (2009), William Moss      
Smart Went Crazy         8b         US               Matt Segal (2009), William Moss               
En Passant               8b+         US                William Moss (2022)
The Human Skewer Direct      ?         Chair Ladder      Mark Edwards (2007), Tom Pearce

Hard E9 / E10?
Hold Fast Hold True         8a/8a+      Glen Nevis         Julian Lines (2013), Iain Small, Franco Cookson
Parthian Shot II         8b           Burbage South      Ben Bransby (2013), >3 repeats, without side runner by James Pearson
Widdop Wall               8b         Widdop            John Dunne (1998), Jordan Buys
Dangermouse                 ?         Wimberry         Miles Gibson (2009)
A Denti Stretti            8b+         Italy            James Pearson (2013)
Prisoners of the Sun      8a+         Rhoscolyn         James Taylor (2021), Jim Pope, James Pearson