[Robsons]

https://twitter.com/?ref=nf&utm_campaign=moonclimbing&utm_content=157571314385813504&utm_medium=fb&utm_source=fb#!/moonclimbing

[yorkshireman]

so esentially people think its 9a because Ondra says it could be as he couldnt do it?didnt ben make a song and dance years ago that hubble was 8c+ and so was action direct and that other routes were being overgraded?

[Paul B]

so esentially people think its 9a because Ondra says it could be as he couldnt do it?didnt ben make a song and dance years ago that hubble was 8c+ and so was action direct and that other routes were being overgraded?

That was possibly Simpson.

I think in general, benchmark routes tend to be hard for the grade. Espeically in 'Old Skool' areas, even more so when said route is bouldery.

[saltbeef]

no it was Ben and he wrote an article in ote (47ish), and there were comments from people like huber etc.
interesting reading.

[yorkshireman]

thought so.i think its possible that its just not really ondra's style,despite him being a good boulderer as well as route climber plus most people have spent way longer on hubble before doing it.its like he says with 3 degrees of seperation,he didnt do the crux dyno once so basically its just a move that didnt suit him so think hubble is probably similar.

[ducko]

It's entirely possible but grades are generally a guideline I find anyway I guess it depends on the style of the climbing and if it suites you or not either way as ondra says strong Britons!

[T_B]

The article is here http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=39015&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

It was Jerry who said "A year is a long time in climbing". 22 years on and Hubble is still repelling the world's best climbers.

[Fultonius]

New sig required \/

[Grubes]

so esentially people think its 9a because Ondra says it could be as he couldnt do it?

There are not many people more qualified to give route grades at that level than young Master Ondra ...

so if he says 9a I would suggest most people would agree ...

[slackline]

There are not many people more qualified to give route grades at that level than young Master Ondra ...

so if he says 9a I would suggest most people would agree ...

Don't some people make a lot of noise about not being  able to give a route a proper grade assessment if you haven't actually climbed it?

[dave]

Maybe we can have a quick show of hands, everyone who's not done hubble, and what grade you think it is?

[ShortRound]

I've not done Hubble but I've also not done Action Directe and comparing the two I'd say there isn't much between them so 9a for both.

[dobbin]

I'm saving hubble for the flash, so haven't actually been on it, but I did hold Keith Bradberg's ropes for an hour once (45 minutes of this was stripping it), and he couldn't do a move - or hold a position. And as he's climbed font 8B (numerous) then it can only mean that Hubble is at least font 8C. Therefore route 9d. At least.

I've also belayed the triple champ on it, and he couldn't do it either. Thus corroborating the 9d grade. I also heard that Beyonce gave birth this week, so perhaps the champ will now be back on top in the booty stakes.

Apparently, Carlisle Slapper did some of the moves once, apparently. But this could be internet rumour and intrigue. Perhaps the whinnying and stamping of hooves that usually accompanies his appearance on the internet will confirm or deny (along with some random statements which noone understands).

[notbadforafatlad]

I haven't done either route, but simple logic says that Action Directe must be harder as it's further away.

[moose]

On the other hand, my mum hasn't done it but has seen a photo.  She said "it's not very high is it?".  She then asked  "how did you get your rope up there?" and "do you know that french man who climbs buildings?".  I put these opinions into Ben Moon's supercomputer (during rare downtime from complex crystallographic modelling for the next generation of "Moon Dust (TM)" chalk).  After gigaflops of number crunching, the verdict is that Hubble is harder than anything I've climbed, but easier than Canary Wharf and Scafell Pike. 

[SA Chris]

I've not done Hubble but I've also not done Action Directe and comparing the two I'd say there isn't much between them so 9a for both.

I've not done both either, but thought Hubble was harder. However I didn't do AD over a year ago, whereas I didn't do Hubble recently, I think it was only last week.

And you we all know what they say about a year in climbing.......

[fatboySlimfast]

Ive been to Raven Tor, Ive also been to Germany but I didnt see action direct, but Ive seen photos of it.  Ive also travlled exstensively to other areas where there are hard routes and seen a few of them so i know what Im on about
Hubbles defo harder for sure.

[rich d]

I will be puntering about on 6's at burbage south tomorrow. As these are not routes, not hard, and not at the same venue as either AD or Hubble I feel qualified to say they're definitely 9a.

[Eddies]

Action Direct is loads steeper than Hubble, its got shit loads of monos and rubbish slopey first joint pockets on it... and a huge move (dyno?) Hubble has got a couple of undercuts and thats about it... But its named after something so awesome thats its not even allowed on our planet.
Given these points I put forward the grades of AD=9a and Hubble 8c+ and suggest that Ben and Adam pipe the F down.

[BenF]

It's not even got an E grade, so it can't be that hard.  Neither's Action Direct got an E grade and it's in Germany, so it's got to be easier since all the best trad climbers are from the UK.  Or Scotland.

[shark]

I've seen Hubble and Action Direct and can confirm that AD is clearly a lot better which isn't hard

[moose]

Bringing this back to fundamentals, Action Direct vs Hubble is a matter of Apfelstrudel vs Bakewell Pudding.... with possible complications due to whether or not accompanying custard or cream enter the equation.   

[Stewart]

I've not even seen Hubble but I recently managed a circuit that I saw Malc Smith fall off. My hardest route is 7a+ so therefore Hubble must be 7a tops and Me > Ondra. To be fair to Malc he was on his 16th lap and I was breathing out of my arse getting round it once but I feel the point is still valid.

[rehab21]

My opinion, for what it's worth:

From extensive google research I have established the following to be pretty much uncontestable fact.

Hubble is a telescope floating in earth orbit taking pretty pictures of celestial bodies, including a particularly colourful one of the Crab Nebula.

Action Directe is a french revolutionary group responsible for assassination and violent attacks, including machine gunning french trade unionists in their headquarters.

Although we're comparing apples and pears here, it seems safe to say that Action Directe is much harder.

 

[fatboySlimfast]

pain aux raisin

[douglas]

What did Rich think about the relative difficulty, as the only person to have climbed both?

[slackline]

What did Rich think about the relative difficulty, as the only person to have climbed both?

Don't even bother with that please (its been done to death, search the forums for the threads).

[tomtom]

Adams article was great - what routes beat him and why (theres also a 8b in his can't do list btw..).

I thought Ben was being a little mischevious with his tweet but he's got every right to be, as the first ascentionist of a route that has severely challenged the worlds best climbers and stopped several! 20 odd years later its still a test piece.

[Jaspersharpe]

So the first 8c+ becomes the first 9a and Ben skipped a grade? Seems bonkers but I think it's because Hubble is such an odd route (basically an 8B/+ boulder problem with a 7c on top of it) which couldn't be more different from the majority of routes in the 8c+/9a category nowadays.

Ben did always say that he thought Hubble and AD were a similar difficulty and Gullich did originally give AD 8c+/9a. With the way grades have gone since, it's completely understandable that they should both shift up slightly so both being 9a does fit.

Incidentally, I find it absolutely amazing that Hubble doesn't get done more regularly nowadays. With the number of strong fuckers bouldering (those mentioned in dobbin's post above for example) I would have thought it was a prime route to transfer that strength to. You even get a bit of a rest before the 7c bit. Put some bloody effort in for fuck's sake.

[slackline]

(theres also a 8b in his can't do list btw..).

Depends on what "lower grades" are but the closing paragraph...

There are of course many other routes, even in the lower grades, which I've failed to climb, but those I've talked about are the ones that, for one reason or other, have frustrated me most. And of course I've failed on many more boulder problems, since in bouldering it's easier to come across certain one-movers that don't suit my style, or perhaps the line doesn't inspire me enough to keep trying. But one day I might be back!

[Probes]

I had to shit in my trangia once  .  Totally 8c+.

[shark]

Apparently, Carlisle Slapper did some of the moves once, apparently. But this could be internet rumour and intrigue. Perhaps the whinnying and stamping of hooves that usually accompanies his appearance on the internet will confirm or deny (along with some random statements which noone understands).

The only whinnying and stamping of hooves being from Dobbin the Wondermule? Handbag, kettle, pot etc..

There's poetry in his posts

[SA Chris]

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Hubble&word2=Action+Direct

Harsh!

[Muenchener]

More people haven't done Hubble than haven't done Action Direct.

On the other hand, there is almost certainly a brewery producing utterly stunning world class beer in the nearest village to Action Direct, because there is in almost every village in the Frankenjura. Is there a world class brewery in Tideswell? No. qed.

[slackline]

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Hubble&word2=Action+Direct

Harsh!

Ah, but thats also returning hits which include 'Direct Action'.

Look at it another way Hubble v's "Action Direct" and you get a different answer

 

[GCW]

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Hubble&word2=Action+Direct

Harsh!

Yes, but if you spell it correctly.......  http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Hubble&word2=Action+Directe

[moose]

Is there a world class brewery in Tideswell? No. qed.

Odd you should say that, the Thornbridge brewery is only 9 miles from Raven Tor and is respected as one of the UK's best and most innovative breweries.  I'd personally put Bracia, St Petersburg, and Jaipur IPA up against the best of Bavaria e.g. Schneider's Aventinus and Hopfenweisse, Weihenstefaner's Hefeweisse, Paulaner Salvator etc

[Jaspersharpe]

Beat me to it moose!

[dave]

Int there a brewery in edale too?

[saltbeef]

Hubble is such an odd route (basically an 8B/+ boulder problem with a 7c on top of it) which couldn't be more different from the majority of routes in the 8c+/9a category nowadays.

i ignore most of the ascents nowadays because 8c seems meaninglessly hard let alone 9b+ but I remember one of the routes adam did at 9b this year had an 8a route to an 8b bloc then a 9a on top. how does this differ so? except you don't climb a 9a after hubble and you have slogged up an 8a (or if you're ted kingsnorth on low right press got nicely warmed up) for the  physical crux?

I saw Dan on it, it didn't look easy and I saw some japanese guy on it and it wasn't a path therefore I corroborate Dobbin's grade of 9d. This is a clear consensus and I believe it should be recorded as such.

[slackline]

Not sure, but there is the Chatsworth brewery Peak Ales which is a bit closer to the Tor than Edale.

[rehab21]

Odd you should say that, the Thornbridge brewery is only 9 miles from Raven Tor and is respected as one of the UK's best and most innovative breweries.  I'd personally put Bracia, St Petersburg, and Jaipur IPA up against the best of Bavaria e.g. Schneider's Aventinus and Hopfenweisse, Weihenstefaner's Hefeweisse, Paulaner Salvator etc

Been a big fan of their Sequioa, too. For a start no-one can tell how pissed you are when ordering because no-one can pronounce it anyway. That and the flock wallpaper background they use for the pump labels.

[moose]

I know it's  but
Kipling's a lovely fruity everyday pint too.  I'm still to drink my bottle of Italia pilsner that's been sat in a cupboard for yonks (meant to be lovely - brewed with Birrificio Italiano - but it's not really lager weather).  The bottles of Bracia and the Coalition special are "laying down to mature" (i.e. being resisted until the inevitable happens and I neck them whilst pissed).  The beer of their's I really regret missing though is the Alliance barleywine.

[Jaspersharpe]

Hubble is such an odd route (basically an 8B/+ boulder problem with a 7c on top of it) which couldn't be more different from the majority of routes in the 8c+/9a category nowadays.

i ignore most of the ascents nowadays because 8c seems meaninglessly hard let alone 9b+ but I remember one of the routes adam did at 9b this year had an 8a route to an 8b bloc then a 9a on top. how does this differ

It differs because it's a 9b not an 8c+/9a. I was just pointing out that on the face of it it seems madness that the first 8c+ could actually have been 9a but when other factors are taken into consideration it is actually entirely possible. One of the factors being that the vast majority of 8c+ and 9a routes climbed since Hubble was done are of a totally different style and therefore the majority of climbers operating at that level are less used to that type of route.

except you don't climb a 9a after hubble and you have slogged up an 8a (or if you're ted kingsnorth on low right press got nicely warmed up) for the  physical crux?

  I'd forgotten that classic quote.

[Teaboy]

the first 8c+ could actually have been 9a

Unless Liqid Ambar gets upgraded as well......... 

My impression from reading the mags at the time and speaking to people at the time was that Ben and Jerry were shooting themselves in the foot in terms of claiming the big numbers, they chose to downgrade stuff abroad (Orgon Canal springs to mind but there were others IIRC) rather than grade UK stuff in line with them. Many old timers will remeber Fred Roulings cartoon on OTE from the time.

As Jasper said Action Direct was never graded 9a, that came about from a slightly wobbly translation of German (UIAA?) grades to French.

I know a few people who will be happy if this upgrade sticks as it'll open the doors to a few other routes that can get similarly re-evaluated.

[ducko]

as previously said, if anyone in the world has a right to give a grade to a route ondra has climbed more hard routes than ive had hot dinners so there's a chance he could be right..

 either that or my pet camel gave birth to an echidna last night there for your favourite pet goose lays a golden egg making it 8^+e..

[Muenchener]

Is there a world class brewery in Tideswell? No. qed.

Odd you should say that, the Thornbridge brewery is only 9 miles from Raven Tor and is respected as one of the UK's best and most innovative breweries.  I'd personally put Bracia, St Petersburg, and Jaipur IPA up against the best of Bavaria e.g. Schneider's Aventinus and Hopfenweisse, Weihenstefaner's Hefeweisse, Paulaner Salvator etc

That's interesting. Perhaps new since I left blighty ('99)? Otherwise I'd have to be ashamed of not knowing about it.

All the beers you mention are southern Bavarian, and while they are good, imo the general standard is even higher oop north in Franken, not least because there is a higher proportion of small obscure village breweries.

[slackline]

as previously said, if anyone in the world has a right to give a grade to a route ondra has climbed more hard routes than ive had hot dinners so there's a chance he could be right..

 either that or my pet camel gave birth to an echidna last night there for your favourite pet goose lays a golden egg making it 8^+e..

Unless your a raw foodist I reckon you've a pet camel that gave birth to an echidna.

[Xan]

pink anasazi

[Doylo]

The ramifications of these old skool routes being upgraded are pretty significant. Liquid Ambar's going in the next guide as 8c+ making it the first of the grade in the world and now Hubble's effectively being called the world's first 9a.  Moony always said it was as hard as Action back in the day and that they were both hard 8c+ (he got close to Action quickly but was thrawted by injury i believe).  There's not many other sports where 20 year old history can change like that!   

[shark]

The ramifications of these old skool routes being upgraded are pretty significant. Liquid Ambar's going in the next guide as 8c+ making it the first of the grade in the world and now Hubble's effectively being called the world's first 9a.  Moony always said it was as hard as Action back in the day and that they were both hard 8c+ (he got close to Action quickly but was thrawted by injury i believe).  There's not many other sports where 20 year old history can change like that!   

At the time they (Gullich and Moon) were defining the line between one grade and the next. Its not like the width of the 8c+ band is pre-ordained by god. He was right to call hard 8c+ or would have been equally "right" to call soft 9a. They were defining a boundary. If others had continued to use AD and Hubble as the definitive benchmark then they would still be 8c+ along with a probably a number of routes subsequently established and given 9a. There has been a tension between nu skool and old school grading for some time which Dave Graham talked about here. Looks like nu skool grading is winning out. At least that will make things consistent.

[Andy Harris]

To be fair back in the day climbing on pockets was very specialist. Especially in the Frankenjura where the locals were the best at this style vs now when visiting wads generally take down any thing anywhere. Pockets at climbing walls were totally non existent, campussing didn't really exist and hence it was very hard to train for them. So I  can see why Ben would have thought AD was harder at the time. Ironically the Frankenjura is now considered relatively standard in terms of grades and reguallry gets beaten my visitors and locals alike. Ironically Hubble is probably even more specialist, being a route where you don't really pull you just hang a series of horrendous positions. Can't think of anything else like it bouldering or routes in the many places I've visited.

AD only has 1 mono certain ascentionists just decided to use 1 finger in some pockets. But essentially these days it's way easier to train for on pockets on the board and campussing. Without building a vague model of Hubble it's really v.difficult to train for and they sure don't make wall holds like that. Probably why it has repulsed so many people climbing that grade or harder.

So as for skipping 8c+, maybe it was an Usain Bolt moment where teh current record is smashed rather than just being beaten. Given Graham/Ondra et al have downgarded so many of the overgraded routes in tha past decade and upgraded others (often the old school ones) who are we to argue with an upgrade. And if it & AD are only 8c+ then maybe everything in the world need to be downgraded (let's face it this isn't going to happen).

[gme]

When did LA get up graded and why. Everytime I look it seams that routes are upgraded.
The oak 8b. Cry freedom and bat route 8c. Evolution and progress 8c+. And now Hubble.
Should be all left alone.
Grades always differed from countryto country. County to county. Makes it interesting.

[Doylo]

When did LA get up graded and why. Everytime I look it seams that routes are upgraded.
The oak 8b. Cry freedom and bat route 8c. Evolution and progress 8c+. And now Hubble.
Should be all left alone.
Grades always differed from countryto country. County to county. Makes it interesting.

Yep everythings on the up Gav  Markus Bock thought it was nails, harder than the 100s of similar PE 8cs he's done. Malc only got it in two and thought it was pretty hard. Its stopped Nic Sellars back in the day when he was in Evolution/Progress form. Pete Robins spent 25 or so days on it, Infanticide which Carson rated close to 8c+ he did in about 7 days i think. It could be hard 8c though, it's never got that much attention (get on it beasts!).  Moony gave Sea of Tranquility 8c too, and that's even harder than Liquid it seems.  I'd rather everything in the world was comparable grade wise rather than having areas of old skool and areas of new skool.

[gme]

I don't think Nic Or Malc spent long on it. Then there is the fickle conditions you get down there. Ben was best placed to grade things as he had done more than anyone else at the time (?). Bit like ondra is now. If it had been at the tor I am sure Nic, barker, welford etc would have repeated it.
If these things get up graded it changes history a lot. If cry freedom is up graded leachy becomes top dog from then until jerry does LA.
I know it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things but to a tiny minority who don't think that world climbing peaked with Indian face it does.

[Doylo]

Malc tried it again in 2010. Is a strange situation thats for sure

[Jaspersharpe]

Thing is we based everything on the grades at the Tor and Buoux. Now that the grades at both crags are seen as nails and everywhere else in the world has softer grades it's swimming against the tide to say that they should still be the standard. Even if it's technically right.

[abarro81]

Even the Tor and Buoux have the odd soft touch...